Tales from the Orc Den

Terrific and Terrible Tropes

• Monster Romance Reviews • Season 5 • Episode 2

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Show Notes

In this episode, we’re diving into the tropes that make our monster-loving hearts soar—and the ones that make us want to throw our books across the room. Whether it’s a grumpy/sunshine dynamic, forced proximity, or a trope that just never works for us, we’re getting to the meat about what makes a trope hit just right.

Podcast Scavenger Hunt

Can you find when we mention these topics?

  • [ ] Size Difference
  • [ ] Forces Proximity
  • [ ] Grumpy/Sunshine
  • [ ] Fake Marriage
  • [ ] Retold Folklore
  • [ ] Cinderella Body Horror
  • [ ] Under-Hyped Tiffany Roberts Books you must try
  • [ ] Defending Ruby Dixon’s Honor
  • [ ] The Chosen One
  • [ ] Adult Love Triangles

Authors, Books, and Other Media We Mentioned

Books & Series

  • The King’s Spinster Bride by Ruby Dixon
  • Ice Planet Barbarians: Honeymoon Tales by Ruby Dixon
  • Bull Moon Rising by Ruby Dixon
  • Jaxar: Warlord Brides by Nancey Cummings
  • Five Gifts for the Blacksmith’s Wife by Lyonne Riley
  • A Minotaur Tale: Being a Monster Romance for Yuletide by Kass O'Shire
  • The Rake by Kass O'Shire
  • Lore Olympus by Rachel Smythe (graphic novel/webcomic)
  • Sugar Apple Fairy Tale by Miri Mikawa (manga series)
  • Neon Gods series by Katee Robert
  • A Kinda Fairy Tale by Cassandra Gannon
  • Love Letters Duology by SJ Tilly
  • The Belladonna Series by Adalyn Grace
  • Cordon Empire by Anna Carven
  • Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao
  • Mercenaries Series by Angela Knight (Goodreads link)
  • Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter series by Laurell K. Hamilton

Underhyped Picks: Tiffany Roberts

  • Dust Walker by Tiffany Roberts
  • Warlock’s Kiss by Tiffany Roberts
  • Kraken Series by Tiffany Roberts
  • Claimed by an Alien Warrior by Tiffany Roberts

Authors

  • Joanna Lindsey
  • Anna Carven
  • Kresley Cole
  • SJ Tilly
  • Cassandra Gannon
  • Laurell K. Hamilton
  • Ruby Dixon
  • Nancey Cummings
  • Lyonne Riley
  • Kass O'Shire
  • Rachel Smythe
  • Miri Mikawa
  • Katee Robert
  • Adalyn Grace
  • Angela Knight
  • Xiran Jay Zhao
  • Tiffany Roberts

Other Media

  • Nosferatu (2024 film adaptation)



Recording in progress.

EJ:

And we are back. Oh, it's trope time y'all. It's trope time. Welcome back everyone to Tales from New York Down and the tales today are tropes. Let's see how much alliteration I can get into one episode. They're trope,

Stacy:

trop, pious. I like triple. I'm not gonna lie.

EJ:

So yeah. We are following up in, you know, our recording IRL World following up from the last episode immediately. Or we were just talking about defining smart. We touched on some very specific tropes. So if y'all haven't listened to that episode, you should, consider meandering back. But don't worry.'cause we are going to get deep into it now. And tropes I find them to be essential. I know some people hate tropes. They think it's a cheap way to talk about books, advertise books, and I'm over here. That's dumb. Like, that sucks for you.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. That's stupid because I mean, if you pull back and look at it from a long enough lens, there's only like six story shapes out there. So tropes are gonna happen. So you just may as well fucking accept it. Like, honestly, that's fucking stupid.

Amy:

They're a much better marketing tool than say combination taglines.

Stacy:

Don't ever fucking do that. No. Do not compare one writer to another. I hate that shit. Oh, that's, it's the worst thing. Why would you, especially when the

EJ:

other writers got a major fan. Yes.

Stacy:

Because, well, it's not fair to either of them. No.'cause you know, the, the one author is like, I've put in the work, I've, you know, I've had success in this. And then because it's never the junior writer that says, I'm just like, Sarah J Mosser, you know, whomever. It's always some dip shit publishing company that does that. Yes. and it's not fair to the new writer because they're like, no, I'm writing my own thing. Like, if you as a reader wanna say, you know, in a non derivative way, X kind of reminded me of y And I like that. Like, that's entirely different than essentially saying that one is interchangeable with the other Right and correct. I hate that shit. They do that with movies too. I remember when the fifth element came out and they were like, it's the, it's Star Wars for the nineties. And it was like, fuck you.

Amy:

Oh my goodness. No, you're better. That's hilarious. Honestly, you're better off listing off a topic or like a major subject matter and then listing books that apply to that, like mm-hmm. If you want something that involves social issues, read the Hate You Give. Sure. Just read Dear Justice by not Dear Justice. Well, yes, read your justice, but read Dear Martin and Dear Justice by Nick Stone. Mm-hmm. Just, you know, list off the titles, but don't compare the two.

Stacy:

Well, right. Just because you're touching on maybe similar things does not mean that one is derivative the other, or one is interchangeable with the other, despite what the dumb fucks in the publishing houses would apparently like you to believe. The other one that always pisses me off is, and they haven't started doing this in writing yet, but it wouldn't surprise me, is anytime you see a movie preview and it says, brought to you by the producers of this other successful thing, it's like whoopy shit. You didn't have anything to do with the creation of it, you just threw money at it.

Amy:

Yeah.

Stacy:

I'm just waiting for publishing houses to be like from the publishing house that fucked up the distribution of this other book that you like.

EJ:

No.

Stacy:

It

Amy:

is.

EJ:

So let's into what are tropes you like, especially for any books that you've read recently. And by recently, I mean, like, past year, I'm pretty open.

Stacy:

Well, like we were talking about before, I love May a breeding kink and I mm-hmm. And as an option of a breeding kink. I love a surprise pregnancy. An accidental pregnancy. Love that. They do too. They're fun. They're fun. They can be fun. Yeah. Like Lillian, was it Lillian Larks? Hoarded by the Dragon? Yes. That was a, that, I mean, that, that's a book that'll make you fucking cry too. That's a good one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that's a, that's a pregnancy. That's a good one. I still need to read it. It's really good. I, I think it handled the whole

EJ:

like, pregnancy thing

Stacy:

really well. Mm-hmm. Well, and a lot of like, sort of the real life repercussions of what happens when two people who don't know each other are suddenly confronted with the fact that they're going to become parents. Yep. And like dealing with like childhood trauma and that kind of thing.

EJ:

I loved it. That was a really good one.

Stacy:

Hey, man. No, I get it. that's not a light read by any stretch of the imagination.

EJ:

No,

Amy:

No, I do love Li la I'm sure she handles it with the grace that is needed for that subject matter. Mm-hmm.

EJ:

She, that, that woman does her research very clearly. I think that's one of the reasons why she doesn't throw out books quite as fast as others. Right. Takes time. She of reminds of Finlay Fund'cause gosh darn, We can't help it. We got all, we started out because of that. I think that's probably fair. We found each other because of her discord. So Yeah, indeed, indeed. We must pay homage. And since

Stacy:

we're, I dunno about you guys, but I'm on that fucking discord every fucking day, multiple times a day. So I'm a lurker would be. It's fun. Yeah. I've noticed a, i I I kept meaning to ask you that I do like to tag you in things without your permission. I love it. It started asking if you're okay with it. Okay, good. I love it. Same here.

Amy:

It's funny though, because sometimes I feel like Beetle, I'll mention I have been summoned. Well, I'll sometimes to the others and they're like, who? I'm like this person. And they're like, oh yes, that person.

Stacy:

yeah. The person you do the podcast with.

Amy:

Yeah,

Stacy:

yeah,

Amy:

Like, yeah, that person,

EJ:

it's like she lurks, but she's here. Yes, exactly. Uh, so yeah, I, I love the, the breeding thing. Uh, Size difference. That's

Stacy:

fine. Size, yes. Love, love me. Some size difference.

EJ:

And I appreciate the dynamic too where the male character is just like, he's super big. He's super strong. You would think he's very British, but he's actually very gentle and Purposeful. Like there is just something it's like Right. He's, he's cautious of, Her size.

Stacy:

Yeah.

EJ:

Yeah.

Stacy:

Oh my God, I love that. Ruby Dixon, who of course, I, you know, it's not an episode of, I don't bring up Ruby Dixon or SJ Sanders or Nancy Cummings. Ruby Dixon does that really well especially with the Ice Point at Barbarians, because Yes, all of that Kui, especially in the first run, so before Ice Home, they're all virgins, with the exception of like three of them. Because there's only like two women of their generation, basically. they're fucking terrified. They are going to break. They're like, I finally got a mate and I'm gonna fucking break her. I just know it. And so it's very cute seeing kind of how they respond to that. There's also a really cute she did the, what's she did what she calls the honeymoon series, so it's like a, almost like a little Oh.

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Like if you buy the physical copies, their honeymoon story is in there too.

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And the one for Ioco and Kyra is absolutely hilarious because by this point in time, she's pregnant. They haven't had their first kid yet, and he is wrapping her ass up in furs to go to the other cave like it's bubble wrap. Aw. It's so fun. Like, he is convinced she is gonna freeze to death in the two hours it takes to get from one cave to the next. And I mean, it reminds me of the Ralphie's little brother Randy in a Christmas story. I can't put my, yeah, we'll put it down when he get school. Oh, I love, love, love. Like an overprotective over the top. Like, you touch or you die, kind of, mm-hmm. Definitely too. That's one of my favorites. Oh

Amy:

yeah. Grumpy sunshine. I love that. whether it's female grumpy and male sunshine or vice versa. I'm down with it. It doesn't matter.

EJ:

You could have a grumpy. You gotta have a grumpy FMC and, and like a golden retriever esque like hero and mm-hmm. I'm, I'm all for it. I, it's HI do love

Stacy:

that, but I sincerely love when it's flipped on its head. Mm. Nancy Cummings did that fucking perfectly in Jer, one of her mod books. Where the main female character van, who is like five foot nothing, is just the grumpiest grump that ever Grump and Jacks are, is a seven foot tall killing machine with a personality of a golden retriever. And it is so fucking funny'cause there's one part in the book where he smiles at somebody and the mod all have terrifying teeth. And he smiles at a, this just this random human, and the human's like, ah, and like runs off. And he's like, but I was trying to be friendly. And then he looks and he sees himself smiling in the, the window of a shuttle and he goes, oh, I see it now. Yeah. It's really fucking funny. It's super duper cute. Oh, horse proximity. Yes. Horse proximity is delicious. That's especially if they hate each other.

EJ:

Especially if they hate each other. Like I'm thinking a couple of months ago when I read also Ruby Diction full Bull Moon Rising. Yes. That was a pretty good one.

Amy:

I'm so behind guys.

Stacy:

Ruby Dixon touches

EJ:

Yeah.

Amy:

You'll know the two's coming out later this year, right?

EJ:

Yes. Oh, and a recent, I can't remember what, it's Leon Riley. It was a holiday one. It's so cute.

Stacy:

that the the, the skater Five five gifts

EJ:

of the Blacksmith Wife. Oh no. I'm

Stacy:

thinking of, I was thinking of come on, stupid. Cassio Shire. She did the a holiday one too, where it was the UR and the Nymph. And what was that one called? It was like something Yue. Hang on, I gotta look it up because this is gonna bug me. That was honest to God, one of like my favorite reads of, I really expected it to just be like a throwaway fluff. Mm-hmm. And it was so fucking touching. And they did kind of a, sort of A Christmas Carol. Yeah. Like the three ghosts. But it's kind of a different take on it. And just, you just fucking, they are both just like this sweet, like, they're both like, kind of golden retriever personalities, although that one does also kind of skew a little male sunshine, female grump. And She's the librarian. And of course she's the strict library. And that's a grump. Well, but the thing that's so fucking adorable about it. Not on Kindle Unlimited, God dammit.

Kendall. Go home.

Stacy:

Search within the store or No? Actually within my library.

what the hell?

Stacy:

Sorry. Okay.

What the hell?

Amy:

Hang on while

EJ:

we're waiting,

Stacy:

sorry.

EJ:

fascinating. Arranged marriage is really good. Yes. Or

Amy:

the fake husband or boyfriend or whatever. Mm-hmm. Right. A fake relationship that becomes real. Yeah, that's a good one too. Yes. I like that. Would you say that's adjacent to the arranged marriage kind of sort? I mean, something like that. Yeah, I'd think so

EJ:

because it's connected. if I were to make some sort of network diagram of all of these, I would definitely connect it,

Amy:

I found

Stacy:

So it's called a Mini's tale in prose being a monster romance for Uel tide, shades of sanctuary. But it's super sweet because she also did some really cool stuff with it where sort of the origin

EJ:

of,

Stacy:

being the nm So essentially a NPH can be born to any people. Okay. But she tends to be born out of it. Usually it's a couple who yearns for a child. Oh. And then it will be born from whatever material is around them. So she's tech and she was born out of marble and it's, it's, but, but like wood ns, it would be the same thing, but it's, you know, there were trees around and it's just is really beautiful. That's beautiful. And she's very lonely and keeps to herself. And then the Ur who,

EJ:

oh no, Stacy, we lost you.

Stacy:

Stacy am I here?

Amy:

You here now.

Stacy:

You were, you were weird glitching.

Amy:

here the whole time.

Stacy:

Very strange. But anyway, the trope is very sweet and I just expected it to be a meh, you know, like I'm gonna read it'cause I like the author and you know, I like a Christmas story. But it was, this was so, this was so fucking adorable actually. It really was.

Amy:

The way you're talking about how the nymphs were formed, that actually makes me think of an anime. I know this is not what we're talking about, but it reminds me of Sugar Apple fairytale, because that's actually how fairies are created in that world, basically. Oh, cool. Mm-hmm. And that's all it takes. I'm like, that's cool.

Stacy:

Well, and that's the thing that was so neat about it is her parents are dwarves. they all, there's this whole city in like under the mountain basically. And they just really, really, really wanted children. the funny thing too is like, her parents aren't really together. Like they didn't have a good marriage, but she's like the best thing that either of them ever created and they could see in the wall of their home, this shape in the stone that looked like a baby. And at first it was just an outline. And then it became more and more developed. And then the last thing that you do to they did to bring her to life was the last little chip to free her from the mountain. And then she was a baby and was alive basically. So it's very, very sweet. That was very fairytale esque. And she's really good at, which is another trope that I really like, is when you take maybe like a bit of common. Commonly known mythology or something like that, and kind of reinterpreted or, or standing on its head.

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Because I'm reading her, her latest book, the Rake, and it's an orca shifter, although really, he's a human who's just figured out how to become a shapeshifter And they, she's taken the concept of the selfie wife, you know, where it's like a fisherman steals her pelt

EJ:

mm-hmm. And

Stacy:

has it, keeps it locked away. And then eventually she regains her pelt and escapes him.

EJ:

Fascinating.

Stacy:

Because she's a seie who's taken captive by the Patian Empire, which are the bad guys in the Shades of Sanctuary stories. He's a high elf. He's got her pelt and he can do whatever he wants, whether, because he has her pelt. And so the worst thing that can happen is somebody can bleed on your pelt, because when that happens, then you're bound to them permanently. And so his threat to get her to do anything is I'll bleed on your pelt if you don't stop it.

Amy:

Wow.

Stacy:

And so she manages to escape. It's a really good read.

Amy:

Oh my goodness.

Stacy:

I love a retold fairytale. Especially if they do it well.

Amy:

A retold fairytale. A retold myth. Just retold. Mm-hmm. Retellings are great when they're, when they're.

Stacy:

Well, I mean, think about the popularity of Laura Olympus, like the reason why that, you know, that's a classic example of a, you know, it's a, you're taking the, the, mythology of Greece, And turning it on on its head the reason why everybody loves Laura Olympus is because you've taken what we've already known and now, you know, putting your own spin on it, making it interesting, giving it a compelling backstory, et cetera, et cetera. So

Amy:

yeah.

Stacy:

Yeah,

Amy:

doing the modern spin also is really fascinating.

Stacy:

Well, and yeah,'cause there's a, oh shit, who was it that wrote me on Gods Katie Roberts. Katie Robert, Yeah. That's another one where she's taken the mythology and put it on its head, basically like, and come up with its own, with kind of her own interpretation.

Amy:

fairytales too.

Stacy:

Amy.

Amy:

Also Disney fairytales.

Stacy:

Yeah, this is

Amy:

true.

Stacy:

Technically up. Yeah. Like, you know how many people would be horrified if you told'em that in the original fairytale Ariel dies?

Amy:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or that Cinderella's two stepsisters lost a toe on a heel and Yeah. Mu mutilated their feet.

Stacy:

Yeah. Another really great example of that is the kind of fairytale stories by Cassandra Gannon, which I am deeply in love with. The first one is wicked, ugly, bad. And essentially what it is, is she takes the bad guys of the fairytales and gives them, like retells it and gives them the happily ever after. So the first book is a retelling of Cinderella from the ugly stepsister's perspective, but we've also got Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad Wolf mixed in there. And her second one is a Beauty and the Beast retelling and it's beast in shining armor, I think. And that's a really fucking good one. That's another one too, where it's great, like it's enemies to lovers force proximity. And also kind of a faded mate thing because the, the premise she has is that in these kingdoms there's capital G, good people and capital B. Bad people and bad people know their significant other on site, whereas good people only know their, their significant others after they have sex with'em. And, but there's a lot of like social injustice because like entire races are quote unquote bad. So it's not because you're a bad person who does bad things, you're born bad. So it's sort of an analog for like racism and stuff like that. She also Cinderella in the first book is horrible. They don't make her clean. She has a cleaning fetish and also Cinderella's mice are anthropomorphic seven foot tall rats who fuck her while she cleans, and it is fucking hilarious. Robinhood is the worst kind of fuck boy in that book and gets, definitely gets what's coming to him. And then there's what is it? Happily Ever Wicked. And that's the Wicked Witch. And this dragon bad guy end up teaming up together and just destroying Wonderland. It's, they're really fun, really funny books.

EJ:

these, they do sound hilarious.

Stacy:

but really takes the fairytale trope and spins it. That's a good one. Very effectively.

EJ:

Do you think there's any underrated tropes out there?

Stacy:

I think that depends on your personal perspective.

EJ:

Yeah. Like in the last episode we were talking about kissing cousins.

Stacy:

I think that's just a genre that you have heard that's out there,

EJ:

I'm okay with definitely if it's underrated, I'm okay with it being underrated. Right. That's my

Stacy:

Definitely on the erotica and rather than the romantic end. Well that was the kiss of death for the longest time with Amazon.'cause if you got banished to the erotica dungeon, then you couldn't advertise for your book and your book didn't pop up in GIS searches. Unless you were specifically looking for that book title in that author.

EJ:

So annoying.

Complete bullshit is what it is.

Amy:

Well, I mean, it's because they're trying to compare erotica to porn and it's not Exactly.

Stacy:

is turn on safe search,

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Just put something in that takes into account the age of the person using it and throttle what they're, they have access to if they're a minor. I'm an adult, I don't need you telling me what I can and can't read. Precisely.

Amy:

Get over

Stacy:

yourself.

EJ:

Amazon, there are some tropes that I, I mean, so, okay, so this is where like I get into the world of like, is this a motif or actually a trope? So specifically I'm thinking of Monster Romance world things like horns, claws, tentacles, ha.

Stacy:

Yeah, I think that's more of a trait. The flavor of your trope, basically. the mod fell books that I've mentioned several times are all, they're alien, but the San Mod fell are seven feet tall, purple and have horns. And the reus mod fell are seven feet tall, red, they're essentially space works with scorpion tails. I would still put that under the header of like faded me mail order mm-hmm. Of sometimes forced proximity.

Amy:

Mm-hmm.

EJ:

Because I know like in like the very niche monster romance world, like the like point, like really playing up different aspects of the, the non-human people in the books mm-hmm. Could be like, they're, they're, they're kind of selling points in some places. Like I'm over here thinking of like using, that's, that's, yeah. Monster fuckers. Yeah. I'm over here thinking of like, you know, using horns as handlebars Yeah. Sort of thing.

Stacy:

That's where the monster fucker comes in. That is, yeah. Feathers.

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Feathers. Yeah. Tentacles like. That's a big selling point in Tiffany Roberts' Kraken series, is that they have little tiny tentacles at the base of their penises that are designed for stimulation.

EJ:

That is actually really fun.

Stacy:

books.

EJ:

I like, we're having a

Stacy:

discussion on Tiffany Roberts books that will gut you. Cough, cough, dust walker. Cough, cough.

Amy:

And

Stacy:

If you want another Tiffany Roberts book that will gut you read the Last Kraken book, because they go into the history of one of the first Kraken couples and I ugly cried reading it with Luke and her.

EJ:

I will add those in, in the notes if nothing else. So. Oh, you should, they're excellent. So particularly masochistic readers could be like, I too want to be gutted, right. And flirty.

Stacy:

I wanna hurt myself in ways that I didn't know I could be hurt.

EJ:

Oh, no. Dust Walker. Have you read that one yet? Dust Walker isn't by Tiffany. Nope, no's Dusk Walker. Oh, sorry.

Stacy:

Dust Walker is a post-apocalyptic,

EJ:

Sorry. I was hearing And DK

Stacy:

dusk for some reason. Well, I mean, those are pretty fucking similar sounds in back, so they're very similar. I think that's understandable.

Amy:

I think the dust walker books are a little bit under, they're under hyped.

Stacy:

One, it's, well, it's one of their earlier ones. Another one that I think doesn't get enough love is the Warlocks kiss. That's another really good one.

Amy:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

That for whatever reason just didn't blow up the same way, like the bricks and things like that did. So yeah. Maybe because they were one-offs, they didn't become like a series. Mm-hmm. Or at least haven't become a series yet. I thought I heard that she was, or that, that they were planning another book in the warlocks kiss setting, which is really cool because the background setting for that is so cool and creepy. There's a whole thing where we can confirm that ej

EJ:

Hmm.

Stacy:

Oh yeah. You guys should yeah. And also tell them that we want Mel Zoe's best friend to get her own book. Anyway, there was a, they were talking about that for like a hot second and then we're like, no, we're probably not gonna do it. And I'm like, no, no, no. That is such a no no,

Amy:

because Mel was such a good character. I know. And I, even though she was hardly in the

Stacy:

book, she was very, I want her to go Right. I want her to go looking for Zoe and end up finding like, one of Red's people finds her or something. Or, or there's a whole other, species, of Alien out there. Like, whatever, I want Mel and Zoe to be back in one another's lives.

Amy:

I would not mind it if it was another Ren Dash's people, because then they'd be back on the same planet

Stacy:

Well, and then, plus Ren Dash's people, the Alleg are awesome. And I would love to see another example of them, whether they're a member of the Warrior Elite like he is or not.

Amy:

Yeah.

Stacy:

So anyway I don't know if it's just because those were like one-offs, if it's because they're earlier in their writing career. Although their first books, the, it's like the Forbidden Aisle or something like that. Like their first handful of books are still very popular too. but work books are weird. Books are weird. Yeah. Is really good. And so is Dust Walker. It's just, you know, you'll read the End of Dust Walker, the epilogue and you'll ugly cry. Amazing.

Amy:

It's amazing to see how one series will make an author really take off.

Stacy:

Yeah. Even if they've written, that's like the whole thing so much. Well, it's like the whole thing though, when Ruby Dixon blew up where everybody was like, newcomer Ruby Dixon. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Fuck Ed. Like newcomer to you. I was reading Ice Plant Barbarian before the TikTok blow up, and I think she had almost the entire, you know, she had to have had the fir the entire first well, maybe not, maybe she was still writing the last couple of,'cause she was writing Ice Plant Barbarian and Ice Home at the same time. But yeah, ice Home had definitely already happened. And that's like the sort of the secondary spinoff set up for Iceland Barbarians. and her Dragon books. She's, I think she started writing those before the Ice Planet Barbarians books. And there were several of those out when she blew up on TikTok. Yeah.

EJ:

Remember.

Stacy:

I,

EJ:

I binged.

Stacy:

I

EJ:

binged,

Stacy:

I was so mad when I read Bounce of The Battle of God because I had assumed, because at that point in time, I was just working my way through her back catalog. I assumed like all of her other stuff, I had like 20 books in the series that I could read. And it was the only one at the time when I read it. And I'm just like, I'm the cliche of like the person standing in the storm screaming the rage to the sky because there wasn't another aspect, an anchor book for me to read. But it's the same thing with Tiffany Roberts. Like, they didn't really blow up until the Brick series blew up on, on book talk.

EJ:

Yeah.

Stacy:

Like, they were doing fine. I think they were already New York Times bestsellers by that point in time. I think you're right. But they weren't as well known even in the indie romance as they are now. Mm-hmm. Until that happened.

Amy:

Yeah. I had definitely seen the Kraken books before

Stacy:

right. And the Infinite City books were popular too.

Amy:

Mm-hmm. What tropes you don't like miscommunication or something? Like I just, yeah. If it's just annoying because Yeah. if they can land it Right. Not, why are you not talking? Right is someone gonna blow up if you

Stacy:

Right. Like SJ Tilly wrote two books that it's the Love Letters Do duology, technically that's called the Tetrology. Did you know that? Anyway called, the first one's called Love ly, and the second one is Dear Rosie. And those are miscommunication, but it's the kind of thing where it wasn't like they had a big fight and one person stormed out. It's that a situation was misinterpreted and like 20 years goes by and then they have a chance second encounter. And then under the course of it, like,'cause like the first book is a, it starts out as a college romance. This romance is really going somewhere. The main character's mother has a stroke. So she has to drop out to go home and take care of her mother. And she leaves a letter for the main male character and a third party intercedes and destroys the letter. So she thinks he doesn't care. He thought she just dipped. And so it's not until years and years and years later when they're both in their late thirties that they have a chance re-encounter and then the entire story is revealed. it turns out it wasn't because either of them was being an asshole, it was because an asshole interceded and kept them apart basically. Mm-hmm. And then in the second book their childhood best friends and he moves and he leaves her a letter with his address to write to him, and she writes to him and he had accidentally written the address wrong. Mm-hmm. And so her letter got returned to her. And so again, it's a miscommunication, but it's not a storming out in high dungeon and I refuse to talk to you. Yeah. Like it's third party things that happen that are outside of their control basically.

Amy:

so if it's something like that, I can hang with it. Yes. That totally makes sense. But I'm talking about like they're still within proximity to each other. They're not, they're just not talking.

Stacy:

Right. That's every romance novel we read in the eighties and nineties. Like there had to be, and I say this in capitalization, the big miscommunication, like Joanna Lindsay was the queen of that.

Amy:

Hmm.

Stacy:

Where somebody misheard something and then, you know, for the last third of the book, they don't talk to each other until, the last 50 pages.

Amy:

The, it's because I'm seeing it in at least one series that I'm currently reading. Oh, really? not at this point in time, but I don't want to say what series it is because that's

Stacy:

You don't wanna blow up anybody's spot, especially if you haven't finished it.

Amy:

Yeah. Basically there's, you've got the two main characters, the, the, the female main character, the male man character, and mm-hmm. They just cannot, I mean, granted, I understand because there's the boss employee dynamic there too, but it's just, ugh, I'm, I'm gonna go into more detail just with y'all, because like I said, I really don't wanna bring any, anything down. Sure. They're negative sort of because they're, they're good, they're good Outside of this whole miscommunication shenanigans, and although I will say I was disappointed to learn that it's going to be a quartet instead of the trilogy, oh God, I

Stacy:

I have become of the opinion that if the book series isn't finished, I'm not reading it. if it focuses on, like it can be an unfinished pairing if. It's different characters, each book, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So like for example, Tiffany Roberts is the Infinite City. Like it's not the same couple in the entire run. Then I don't mind. But if it's the same couple, I'm not, first of all, I can handle two even three books. I just don't really feel like there's anything that goddamn interesting that I need to see in the fourth fucking book.

Amy:

Or even more than that, Stacy.

Stacy:

Yeah. there was one that I was curious about and I was looking at it and it was literally, I think it was like six books in and it still wasn't done. And I was just like, nah, man. Godspeed, but I'm gonna give this one a pass.

Amy:

See, this is why that's, that's just too

Stacy:

much.

Amy:

This is my thing with Trilogies. Why even if I'm really eager to read Book one, I have stopped, I will hold off until Book two. Is out before I read book one. And then if I like it, I will continue into book two. Sometimes I'll book free is almost out. Or even with the Bella Donna Trilogy last year, because I knew the third one was coming out. So I'm like, okay, now this is the year that I will read these books. And I did, I enjoyed them. Yes. We're getting a bonus novella at the end of this year, but it's bonus content. The main story is.

Stacy:

Yeah. Well, and again, like I love the idea of I really like this world building, let's play around in it. Or there's even cases of, there's a writer I like, I cannot think of her name off the top of my head. She was one of the first alien romances I really got into. But her book series, God, there's gotta be like 20 books in that series. And for the most part, the first three books were the main character, but they were short. And it made sense because there was kind of an overarch that came to a conclusion at the end of the third book. And so now it's like, let's see what they're doing now. I like stuff like that because there's been enough time to pass that you're like, oh, I'm curious about this. I'm curious about that. Anna Carvin does that a lot too with her Cordon Empire theories where you go back to the main couple after however many books. I like stuff like that because I feel like it's a revisit rather than you just won't end the goddamn story. Mm. Okay. That that is fair.

Amy:

I don't mind that, but

Stacy:

yeah.

Amy:

Trying to But but what you're talking about, yeah. I think trying to stretch out one book into two or two books and three, it drives me. Absolutely. Or five. Yeah.

Stacy:

Same, hard, same. It's just like, what do you have to say that's so fucking interesting that I should. Put this much of my time into these characters. Oh,

EJ:

very rarely. Mm-hmm. there's almost

Stacy:

always when it's like that it, there's almost always a political piece, and I don't like that political. I got enough of that in real life. I don't need it in my fucking spot.

EJ:

Some writers really need to be sat down and explain, listen, Shakespeare had it right. Brevity is the soul of Wayne, right?

Amy:

Mm-hmm. Definitely

Stacy:

get an editor.

Amy:

I think some of them are just not given editors.

Stacy:

Yeah. Well, yeah, and I mean, if they're, especially if it's an indie writer, then indie writers, I can forgive. You have to lot more than like, let's say, yes, I can A big, so like an indie writer. Yeah. I can forgive. Like, okay. Like maybe like there's some misspellings or homonyms are used instead of the correct word. but when it's a case of like, you could have cut 20 pages out of this chapter, then that's when it becomes problematic because at that point in time, it's like, I'm bored. I shouldn't have to fight to finish. To read your book.

EJ:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

If I'm fighting me to finish your book, odds are high, I'm gonna lose because even if I lose, I still win. Right. You know, and so this thing where like there was an author that she, she started with Sci-Fi Romance and I really liked her sci-fi romance. And then she switched out into sort of paranormal thriller romance.

EJ:

Hmm.

Stacy:

And it was good, it was well paced, but it was another one of those where I think it took four or five books to be finished. And it was like, it just turned into like politics and politics and the character finding out that she has X, y, and Z powers. And I just, I'm just not invested in that. You know, like, I don't wanna read about the faded one if I'm not reading young adult.

Amy:

Does that make sense? Yeah. There you go. That's a trope. That's a trope that can be very annoying is the faded one. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be so careful with the faded one. And, and speaking of wi of other YH usually it's found mostly in ya, but sometimes it gets into adult love triangles.

Stacy:

triangles are bullshit.

Amy:

Like,

Stacy:

please. Or if you're gonna have a love triangle, resolve it before the end of the book.

Amy:

Yeah. Or make it an actual equilateral triangle. Mm-hmm. So what's the point?

Stacy:

Yeah. Right. Well, and it's just a. It's low hanging fruit. Like, it's, it's, it's the easy, it's an easy way to create drama and I'm not interested in low hanging fruit. I can go out and pick low hanging fruit myself. Seriously. I don't need somebody to do it for me.

Amy:

No. Or at least make it a why choose like Iron Widow. Ooh, spoiler alert. Yes.

Stacy:

Yeah, I mean, the pretty open about that. Like, I follow her on, on Instagram and she's pretty open about the fact that it's a reverse harem. Sort of Is it, is it reverse or is it technically It's technically a, a a

EJ:

a

Stacy:

a

EJ:

triad. Yeah.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm.

EJ:

You know, simultaneously trope that I'm getting tired of turned into trope I would love to see is billionaire romance. Yeah.

Stacy:

real life billionaires have just fucking ruined that for me.

EJ:

Right, right. Yes. So I feel like the billionaire romance trope, like I feel like they need to be made into like, you need like a proper like reformed Yeah. Billionaire. Yes. For feel, feel like billionaires now need to be treated as sort of,'cause they are like. Reformed criminals. Socio reformed

Amy:

antagonist.

EJ:

Yes. Reformed antagonist. Boom. There we go. That's the word, Amy. Thank you. Learns how to be a fucking human gains empathy. Yes.

Stacy:

Yes. Realizes they're not magically special.

EJ:

Simply because they have a lot of money. Obscene amount of wealth. and I want the like, wow, I'm a terrible person or I am stuck in a terrible system. I want them to pull some real pillars down. Not the whole like, and now my beloved, we shall escape to the countryside and never have to deal with the realities and ever again. I want to I will tear down this temple of greed for you by love. Thank you.

Stacy:

other thing too, so there's a way that you can do it where, because Billionaire and Dark Romance does, like, there's a lot of overlap there. Mm-hmm. Yes. And there's a book I really like that I don't think either of you would enjoy because it's straight up non-con at for at first. And it's one of my rare forays into contemporary. I'm not gonna list the author because I don't like any of her other books. This is like a one off. And I don't want be like, fuck was a Fuck. Yeah. Kind of. It's a fluke. And it's not that she's bad writer. Yeah. Pretty much. Like, it's not that she's a bad writer, it's just she commits like one of the cardinal sins of my own personal. Reading structure and that's that she'll have two characters together in their own book, and then she'll break them up in a later book and like permanently break them up. And I'm not done for that. Yeah, that's a deal breaker. Don't blame you anyway. So, but this book, he is an amoral sociopath, but he's fascinated with her. And so the way that she kind of circumnavigates that, rather than him having a completely unbelievable, you know, suddenly grows empathy, which that's not gonna happen is basically she sort of makes his desire to please the main character, the sort of social like, like sort of handle like on how to, how to control some of his behaviors. So like he ends up killing a guy who sexually assaulted her, which I don't have any problems with that. And then he buys the house that the guy had lived in and is trying to figure out what to do with the property and he ends up turning it into a cat rescue because she likes cats. So I can see something like that where if you wanna keep them as the sociopath, because let's be honest, you have to be a sociopath, become a billionaire, but make it where it's like the significant other is his one weakness, who is an A sociopath and is going to try and create something good.

Amy:

Okay.

Stacy:

that,

Amy:

I could see

Stacy:

that.

Amy:

I could see that.

EJ:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hear that.

Stacy:

one Kressley Cole actually has a contemporary erotic romance trilogy, the game maker trilogy, that's also good.

Amy:

Hmm.

Stacy:

It kind of comes under that same heading Russian Mafia and then just going into just like the obscenely wealthy and like what, you know, how some of it'cause can be used for good.'cause like in one of them it's the classic, the billionaire and the call girl, except she's not really a call girl.

EJ:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And he thinks she's a professional and it's this whole thing where she's like, excuse me, like helping him to diversify his real estate portfolio.'cause she went to school for like real estate business management. And is explaining like, how about you buy up low income housing, keep it low income, but turn it into good low income housing and explaining why. Like, you'll have a consistent, you won't have super high turnover. it makes you look good. You could probably use it as tax write off. Like she goes through and explains all of that. And again, it's a more realistic, like you are super rich and don't understand what it's like to be cold and starving. But I do, so let me use my lens to help you focus your wealth, basically.

Amy:

Imagine the idea of basically creating a community, buying out this entire neighborhood that is in need of serious work, doing the work to improve that area, and then allowing those in need, right? And not just turning into a gentrified nightmare, right? Yes. Being able to afford it and live there with their families and whatnot. And I'm just like, it's, and just, you know, work on maintaining it too. That's the other thing. Just work on maintaining it. Yep.

Stacy:

Yeah. See that's what La landlord classes want you to believe they are, but in reality, what they are is parasites.

Amy:

Yes, We know that. And I hate it.

Stacy:

Hate, but part of the reason why she made that, that statement to him in the book is because she had lived in this one shitty property that he was looking at, and it was this like, this vert who of a super, who was like sneaking into like women's units and like sexually assaulting them or trying to blackmail them into sexual favors in exchange for help with their rent. Like that kind of stuff. So again, it was drawing from a real life for that, for the main female character, real life experience to, you know, remind the billionaire of how to be a fucking human. Hmm. There's also a scene in that book where the bride to Be's mother has given Molly and it's fucking hilarious at the wedding. That does sound hilarious. It was really fucking funny. I was trying to give her an Ativan, but I accidentally gave her Molly, I mean the bride's mother does licking her husband and she's chill too. Well, she starts licking her. The, the mother-in-law starts licking her, the mother-in-law's husband in the middle of of service. It's pretty funny. Starts licking his cheek.

Amy:

It's really funny.

Stacy:

It's really funny. Yeah. But that's a really, really good series too, if you want a readable That's also one that interestingly has an orgy scene without straying into why choose territory. It was very well done. There's a sex scene in the first book

EJ:

that is

Stacy:

super duper hot.

EJ:

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, actually come to think of it, I think I would like to, I do love when there is, this is adjacent to the orgy thing. I kinda love when A-B-D-S-M club or sex club is visited. Fun. And that's exactly what it is actually. Yeah. That's kind of fun, honestly. Mm-hmm. I agree. And I don't know what it is about. It just does it for me.

Stacy:

It's hot. Well, it, there's kind of that like permission to be sexual. Yeah, yeah. Like we're all doing it. You're not gonna offend somebody because this is a space that's specifically set up to be sexual in, so you don't have to worry about, like, it's one of, so one of the things that has always driven me nuts in my quest to find what I'm suspecting is my non-existent, significant other is, you know, I'm, I'm on fe life mm-hmm. Because I'm into BDSM. Mm-hmm. And so many of the guys that I have talked to have really been excited by the idea of public sex.

EJ:

Hmm.

Stacy:

And I'm like, I get the idea. Yeah. I get the idea of it, but the reality of it is, is I would never do that because you don't know if there's like a kid that's gonna turn the circle. Yeah. Or, or turn the corner. And I don't like, because for them I think it's, it's the thrill of almost getting caught. Yeah. Yeah. And my thing is, is I've been flashed before, like having someone thrust their sexuality upon you, especially when you're just living your day-to-day life is horrible. It's really fucking horrible. Or like, I can remember one time being at the beach with Cindy and this couple were having sex on the beach and it was just like, nice fucking creeps nice.

Amy:

happen in Paris while we were on a Nice little cruise on the sand. And it's like, you know, we're all a bunch of high school students and they thought it's a good opportunity to, you know, take the kids out. Got an eye full of people that are just really going at it on the shores of the sand. Right. Got an eye full of uncircumcised French dick. Yeah. Something like that. Just like you, you could tell she re she really got into it because she arched in everything. It's like, wow. Oh my. Well, I mean, at least

Stacy:

she was with somebody who knew what he was doing, I guess. But the idea of like A-B-D-S-M club or a sex club means that like, it's okay if like, I must have you now I'm gonna take you up against this wall and people are gonna watch and that's okay because those people are there to do that.

Amy:

Well, yeah. That's also, I would say that would count as in public too, because it's in That's right.

Stacy:

Yeah. Well, yeah. it's not a private we at home space. Right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, I think that would qualify. It's like a designated, designated a designated space. Yeah.

Amy:

That there would not be any children there.

Stacy:

Right. And you don't have to worry about the cops showing up and arresting you and you getting an indecent exposure charge.

EJ:

Right. Before you know it, you're on like the list with all the other social predators Right. On someone's

Amy:

Which you didn't deserve to be on the list. Exactly.

Stacy:

in the first place.

Amy:

This actually reminds me of mercenaries, which is a trilogy of novellas that Angela Knight did. And'cause she was actually my foray into actual paranormal romance after outside of the Anita Blake books.

Stacy:

Anita Blake was a gateway for a lot of people.

Amy:

Oh yes. I think you're right. But the second novella actually deals with an alien people that, by the way, they all look human. Don't they always? Yes. at least from the nineties and early two thousands.

Stacy:

see, to be fair, I feel like monster fucking is like a progression. Yes. Because when I started reading it, I was like, okay, you know, it's okay. The kui like, basically looked like people just with horns in, they're blue. And now I'm like, sense and ooze, bring it the fuck on.

Amy:

But in this, on this planet, basically the royal class has the whole dominant and subordinate culture.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. Like do where the royal,

Amy:

the royals have to be dominant. Gotcha. And, they have actual thralls that they, you know, dominate.

Stacy:

But anyways, are we going for like a vampiric kind of vibe here?

Amy:

No,

Stacy:

no van.

Amy:

how

Stacy:

do they

Amy:

Th th is in just somewhat, yeah. I'd have to look at it. I don't even remember if I still have the book. That's fair. That's fair. But, but anyways the, the daughter of the, the ruler finds that she is actually not a dominant She is. Right. She is a subordinate and Right. And she's, she has to put forth the act though. But the funny thing is, is that the lieutenant from the first story actually gets taken in as they're, they're on a, he's on a, he's on a secret mission or whatever here. And so he gets taken captive and he is given to her as, as her thro, but Right. She, he's definitely more of a dominant than she is. Right,

Stacy:

right.

Amy:

just seeing that dynamic switch was just, it was fascinating. Yeah, it's called Mercenaries. By Angela Knight.

By Angela Knight. Okay.

Amy:

Night Night with a KI

figured,

Amy:

just so you know, she had another series that I actually read where King Arthur and his knights actually were vampires and they needed witches to kind of curb their, the empiric stuff.

Stacy:

Did the witches produce too much blood? I don't know what it was.

Amy:

So I might have read a short story said in that. Possibly, but master of the Night is the first one. I'll have to check that out. And then there were werewolves that got involved there too, with Master of Wolves, but Master of, master of Moonlight was the second book in between.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll have to check that out and see if that's the person I'm thinking of. Because she wrote a short story in an anthology that I had that didn't survive the fire. And I can't remember the author's name and I'd been curious to reread that book. Hmm. But it was a thing, and I could swear there was something about Knights of the round table with it and the witches, we produced too much blood so that the vampires could feed on them easily. I think that might be what it is. But I, and there was, it's been so long since I read it, one of the nights was looking for the quarter, think she was three fourths human.'cause her mom would've been half.

Amy:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And because the witches, like they're all immortal and have like, you know, children over the years.

Amy:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

I gotta check this out now and see if that's who it was. Angela Knight.

EJ:

Check it out so I can add it to our notes for sure. Because I want to like now do the whole, like, directing to our listeners thing because I am absolutely going to bug people on, Instagram and probably Substack. What are what are the tropes that turn you on or turn you off? Oh. And yeah,'cause I love hearing like what turns

Stacy:

people's cranks and what doesn't.

EJ:

Yes.

Stacy:

I feel like

EJ:

this is a weird year. 2025 is a weird year. We're going to like. I think there's going to be a lot of tastes that are going to change this year. Yeah, yeah. The whole like, see that whole like billionaire trope thing, like Yeah, I think that's gonna be out, that's like the very tip of the iceberg. I feel like we are in the middle of a major cultural shift. But I am gonna say for

Stacy:

people out there like me who have been feeling overwhelmed by shit, just remember there are more of us than there are of them. And there always fucking will be. Yes. And eventually, not too long from now, everybody's gonna realize that and shit's gonna change. And I believe it's gonna change for the better. Mm-hmm. Can I say really fast? One trope that I hate. I'm really starting to be, I think because as I age, I am not loving the age gap romance anymore. I used to be really into it when I was younger, but now that I'm in my forties, I'm just like, yes, yes, yes. He's 45 and can only fucking 18-year-old. Got it. Okay.

EJ:

That's fair. That's too, what the hell is a 45-year-old have to do with an 18-year-old? Exactly.

Stacy:

Now age gap doesn't have to automatically be thrown away. SJ Tilly, who I have mentioned before, has a really good age gap, but the main field female character is 32.

Amy:

Yes.

Stacy:

Like

Amy:

Yeah. So she's an

Stacy:

adult.

Amy:

Yeah. You've got a 30-year-old and then you've got like maybe a silver fox and that's exactly what it is. Actual or mix whatever silver daddy. But the other, you said Stacy, the other one Yeah. You hear about it too much in Reddit. Yes.

Stacy:

It's basically like a dude in the midst of a midlife crisis went shopping at his local nunnery for the, the latest virgin on the market.

EJ:

Yeah. Actually, come to think

Stacy:

She's always

EJ:

a virgin. Course she is.

Stacy:

Oh. King Spinster Bride. It's actually, that's a good precursor. Yes.

EJ:

And it's a good one.

Stacy:

she's like, I read one 10 years, 11 years older than he's, yes. Because I think she's, and it's hot. It's awesome. It's really hot. I love it. It's really good.

Amy:

I love really good. It's the other one, she had the special edition cover, right?

Stacy:

I think so. Yeah. Just very recently. Yeah. She did a special release of that not too long ago, I believe. Like over Christmas or something. Nice. Yeah. It's still available on Amazon. I believe. I need that. I need all of her stuff in physical copy, honestly. But I love the aspects and anchors.

Amy:

Hmm.

Stacy:

I need to do a reread of that'cause I haven't sat and read it in a minute.

EJ:

So, but in the meantime, we'd love to hear from you dear listeners. Please find us. We have our little website the Tales from the orc done.com. Very clever, very straightforward. And of course you can find me and bug me about all the things you like and don't like about the podcast on my socials Monster romance reviews on Instagram and Substack. In the meantime, wherever you're listening, if you could leave some nice ratings or reviews, that would be

Amy:

awesome.

EJ:

Yes.

Stacy:

with people who are listening.

Amy:

please. and also answer some listeners' questions too. Oh, that would hundred percent be very cool,

Stacy:

and we would love to hear your take on what we're talking about.

EJ:

I don't think we have solicited much on users, but I would love for that to change. I think that would be fun.

Stacy:

Do we have an email, like a dedicated email address yet?

EJ:

We can make sure that there's one, we should probably get one if we want people to reach out to us. Ah, that's probably true. In the meantime you can always DM me, so

Stacy:

yeah, and if you're like on Finley's Discord, I'm Lemon Witch. And feel free to reach out to me.

EJ:

Yes, I bite, but only in the fun way between, and I just lurk, Amy and Stacy both can summon me like, damn Beetlejuice. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amy:

I summon Stacy all the time in there. She does. And I love it.

Stacy:

Well, now I'm the Beetlejuice theme stuck in my head. Let us get copyright. Oh, that's true. We're probably gonna get a copyright strike. I better stop even if I'm singing it poorly.

EJ:

Provided that we don't get taken down for copyright.

Stacy:

Yeah, right. Also, everybody watch knows Sferra two and tell me how amazing it is. And if you think he's ugly cookie, I don't wanna hear it.

EJ:

We'll talk to you later, dear listeners. So remember, embrace the DNF.

Amy:

Let go of fomo, and

Stacy:

life is too short to read writing. Bye. Bye y'all.