Tales from the Orc Den

Smut or Not? Separating Steam from Mist

• Monster Romance Reviews • Season 5 • Episode 1

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What really makes a book “smutty”? Is it about explicitness, frequency, or something else entirely? And how does that definition shift when we talk about monster romance? In this episode, we’re tackling the age-old question: What defines smut? We’ll explore everything from spice levels to the line between romance and erotica, plus what non-explicit factors make a book sexy.

Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to keep up with new episodes and let other people know about us!

Check out Stacy's other podcast project, TropesG.O.A.Ts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tropesg-o-a-ts/id1793022885)

Check out EJ’s monster romance blogging directly on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/monster_romance/) and Substack (https://monsterromancereviews.substack.com/).

Authors, Books, and Other Media We Mention:

  • Vulture Article: https://www.vulture.com/article/rebecca-yarro-fourth-wing-empyrean-guide.html
  • Rebecca Yarros
  • Sarah J. Maas
  • Bound to the Battle God by Ruby Dixon
  • A Lady of Rooksgrave Manor by Kathryn Moon
  • The Company of Fiends by Kathryn Moon
  • Sanctuary with Kings by Kathryn Moon
  • Honey Phillips
  • Susan Trombley
  • Nosferatu (2024) ****
  • Doves & Demons by Clio Evans
  • How to Train Your Goblin King by Erin Vere
  • Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries by Heather Fawcett
  • Emily Wilde’s Map of the Otherlands by Heather Fawcett
  • Good Faeries/Bad Faeries by Brian Froud
  • Grindhouse Double Feature (2018)
  • Deal with the Devil by Lizzie Strong
  • Doctor D'Arco, Sorcerer of London: A Victorian Gothic Romance by Kathryn Colvin
  • Amelia Peabody series
  • Morning Glory Milking Farm by C. M. Nascosta
  • Moon Blooded Breeding Clinic by C. M. Nascosta
  • Scrubs (2001-2010)
  • Escaping the Friendzone by Emily Antoinette
  • Mahdfel from the Warlord Brides Universe by Nancey Cummings
  • Orc Sworn Series by Finley Fenn
  • Berries and Greed by Lily Mayne
  • Milana Jacks
  • Loki Renard
  • I Married a Lizardman by Regine Abel
  • I Married a Naga by Regine Abel
  • Mate for the Alien P*rn Star by by Alexis B. Osborne
  • Romantically Inclined Reviews
  • Love Hina
  • Upon a Moon-Dark Moor by Rebecca Brandewyne

Oh my gosh. It has been forever and a day.

Stacy:

You made a whole person and squeezed it out of your fun hole. Yes. I, I'm sorry that I sent fun hole that came out completely uninvited by me. I mean, and I think I've grossed myself out.

It is usually a fun hole. It had to be a work hole. I don't know. Yeah. And this has not gotten any better. The tunnel of fun.

Stacy:

A tunnel of love became the tunnel tunnel of, oh God, where's my epidural?

Which was awesome, by the way. I'm very team epidural. Yeah. But yeah, welcome back y'all. This is exciting to be back. Oh, we're back in the or den. Ladies, welcome back to Do for the Or Den.

Stacy:

Yes. And also if you guys don't mind me doing a little shameless plug, my friend Cindy and I also started another podcast. Called goat tropes or trope goats. I can't remember which one, but it's g oat t as in greatest of all time. So it's Cindy, me and our co-host, Gertrude the Goat, who gives her opinions on whatever trope we're talking about. This sounds like a joke, and it's not, we did actually start this podcast, so I curious,

I will make sure the link is in our show notes so no one has to Google and figure out which one it is themselves.

Stacy:

Right. Gay

goat tropes.

Stacy:

Goat tropes. We're gonna look up goat smut and they're gonna see some things. Oh,

But I mean, sorry. It means Seders, you know,

Stacy:

SERS, you know, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. Sader responds. Mr. Thomas. Oh my, oh my. Mm-hmm.

And sort of speaking of tropes we're, we're, we're diving into kind of a general ish topic. I feel like in 2025, we gotta, we gotta get grounded now. There's a lot of crazy stuff happening in the world, and so we're kind of, we're getting to some basics for folks. Gotta ground some folks. Part of, and today we're going to be, we, we wanna talk about what the hell is smut and, and sussing out, at least from our perspective. What is as an, as other people might put spicy books as opposed to not actually spicy books. And part of this came out from us sharing articles. And Amy, you had shared an article from a popular pa not newspaper online magazine that I am not thinking of the name right now, but it was a mainstream magazine talking about here are spicy stuff. And we're like, wow. Huh. But

Stacy:

once again traditional news is about a year and a half behind the, the curve. Mm-hmm. Essentially is what I'm hearing. Mm-hmm.

Amy:

Right, right. No, I, I don't even remember what magazine it was either, Eugene.

I was

Amy:

like, when did I share this article?

Oh, it was towards the beginning of the year. Don't you worry. Okay, gotcha. You slept since

Amy:

then.

Oh, stuff has happened. Much, many, many things have happened since then. Yeah.

Stacy:

Yeah. It just reminds me of when Ruby Dixon blew up on TikTok. But those of us who really liked Ruby Dixon, and, I mean, I hate to be that asshole, but I had read the entire fucking series like three times by the time she blew up. And then after she blown up like four months later, then the magazines were like Blue Aliens. You say like, it kind of, it kind of sounds like that,

right? No. Okay. I found it Vulture. The rise of Rebecca Yaros, the mother of Dragon Smut

Stacy:

I'm gonna call shenanigans on phone. That's a Understood that whatever.

Yes. But that, and that was the whole point because especially,'cause I was thinking of like, we, we had gone down this this conversation path especially, and I would remember like ruminating on this seems to be like an issue for folks like Sarah J Mass also has run into the same issue. Now, I will admit, like in some of her later stuff, she is managed to be a lot more explicit. But anyone who is like, wow, you know, a quart of thorns and roses, that is so S Muddy has clearly never read that book. Oh, sweetheart.

Stacy:

Sweetheart.

Or my, my

Stacy:

Precious jewel

or, or they don't quite understand what SM is. Yes. To be clear, clear call a little bit, call me. Just to be clear, I have I have, I'm completely caught up on that series. I have not read the Crescent City stuff'cause I, I, I have other stuff on my TBR but I've dabbled, but

Stacy:

I just, I, I don't, I don't care for Sarah J Mass and that's not a, I'm not shitting on her, it's just not for me. Yeah.

I. I'm on the internet enough. I feel like her, her major fan ladies out there, they keep me updated and informed plenty. Mm-hmm. Most definitely. And

Amy:

the funny thing is, there are some in Finley's server that, that are very much aware and Yep. Yeah. There is no shame to anyone who does enjoy them. The hype train kills. Oh, oh, it does. It

Stacy:

can kill. So if it's overdone and not, and that happens with anybody, like that's not a knock on like Yes. Not at all. Anybody who's over

hyped. Yeah. Yes. Hell no. Not at all. No. But I, I think it is useful for us to talk about, okay, so what, what is smut, and I'm going to start with an icebreaker question. What is the spiciest monster romance you've read and most specifically on a scale of bell pepper to ghost pepper, how spicy was it?

Stacy:

Geez.

And go into the specifics of why it was the way it was. Like why are you calling it that? I think

Stacy:

for me, like that's, that's not an easily answered question because it also depends on what you're going for. Because like, I can name plenty of like porn without plot, sty sty smu, but then. There's also several books that I've read where like, it edges you the entire book. So by the time they finally fuck, even if the sex itself isn't like they did it upside down in a swing with a, a Turkey baster and a can of Vaseline that you're still like, oh God, yes, I need a cigarette by the time they finally get to it. So really, I context has a lot to do. I mean,'cause it's kind of the same idea of you can talk about the exact same sex act, but if you're talking about it in a psychology class versus giggling about it with your friends over wine or something, that's an entirely different, you know, it goes from clinical to hot and from hot to not depending on, on setting and things like that. So. Right.

I'm over here thinking maybe like examples that are more for the romantic girlies out there. There. Okay. Romantic.

Stacy:

Lemme think because I, I mean because Ally, all of Finley fence stuff would Yeah, definitely. Mm-hmm. I prefer because I prefer like five alarm. Like if you're gonna do it, fucking do it. Do it, do it. I want hair pulling, I want screaming orgasms, I want fluids everywhere. Mm-hmm. But, but there is a lot to be said for being edged. Mm-hmm. Like one of the best payoffs in terms of that I think would be Ruby Dixon. I am a Ruby Dixon Stan. I will not apologize for that. Same here. And if you wanna fight me, that's fine. Let's go outside. I have heavy shoes I kick but I think for me, like the best payoff in terms of that would probably be bound to the battle. God. When Faith and Aaron finally, fuck, you're probably like far fifth into that book by the time it finally happens and they have been dancing. That is a good point.

Yes.

Stacy:

Or because

most of that like

Stacy:

book is just edging. Yeah, because I don't even think Aaron and Faith Kiss until probably past the halfway point, because it's not until they're with the, I've forgotten the name of the people. The the ones who share, share everything. The naan, I think it is. And Aaron Kisses Faith. He pulls her to his lap and kisses her because the Lord of the Keep wanted to partner swap, basically. And Aaron essentially tells them that anybody who touches or loses their hand, but they still don't fuck for another, probably fuck chapters and chapters after that. But but when they finally have sex, like it's, it's raw, it's primal, but it's not particularly like shocking. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's penis and vagina. There's not a whole lot of like, so I, so again, I think it also depends on your parameters too. Like what do you define as as spicy? Like spicy for you? Does it have to be weird Penis unusual Sex Act? Or is it just like intensity? It's primal. Ergo it's hotter. Does it, am I making sense or am I just word salad? You guys, I, I think

I'm, I'm getting what, what? What you're, you're trying to get at, I'm over here trying, thinking like, you know, just amount and focus of like the erotic stuff. Like what am the first things that I think of is Catherine Moon and a Lady of Rooks Grave Manor. I was actually

Amy:

going to reference sanctuary of Kings, which is, I, I finally, I finally read the Last of the Tempting Monsters main story, which was Sanctuary with Kings last month. And oh my God, the way that it was edged between Ivania and Ester or Sterian, I'm like, I'm like, took forever. Please

just go for it.

Amy:

And, and

I think like objectively too, if we were to like throw, we, we were talk about like, here's, here's how like spicy it can get like, so a Lady of Oaks, grave Manor, you do have like a couple of orgy scenes, quite frankly, they would be considered like orgy scenes and in sanctuary for Kings that the, the final book of the Temping Monster series that starts with a Lady of Brooks Grave Manor. There's like three different orgies going on in one room, as I recall. Yes.

Amy (2):

But then

Amy:

again, it's kind of the same

Amy (2):

way in company of fiends too. That's a good point.

Stacy:

Well, that kind of, so many couplings happening everywhere. I'm like, okay, that's kind of her, her like signature, isn't it? Like Yeah.

Amy:

She's

Stacy:

like, it's just a big old sex party and God bless her for it. She's

Amy:

all about the reverse harem, which I will not say no to, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea. Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Which is okay. I mean, I'm not like, I, I personally not my taste, but I'm glad I will fight to the goddamn end to make sure that those books are still published because other assholes don't get to tell other people what they can and can't read.

Agreed. Yeah. I I, I also acknowledge that there's there's dark romance as well.'cause you can go like really dark on being sexually explicit. And I admit I am not, I I am not super well-versed into that. My, I darker romance. Yeah. My realm has like, at most like dubious ish mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sort of consent. Whereas I can, I can suggest

Stacy:

a couple of titles that are full on non-consent. So, yeah. I mean, and again, if it's not your, your like, don't people don't take this as a dare. Like, don't think, don't, oh, well this person thinks that. They're like, I don't know, like. They're a better smart reader because they're reading things that upset them, leave them traumatized. It's like, no, there is no competition. No, this

Amy:

is the context. There is no competition here. We've had this discussion numerous times, not just here, but in, in the server, in our own personal chat. And it's not a competition. You find what you like, you

Stacy:

like, you don't

Amy:

like what you don't like. Exactly. And if you want to step out of your comfort zone, that's fine, but if you need to step back into it, go for it. Don't finish a book you're not enjoying because we ain shit

Stacy:

writing. Exactly. Life's too short for writing or looks too short to read. I, I should say. Yes. Yes. Pretty much. So. I, I guess too, like that also kind of ties into it for, in terms of smu, because I can think of plenty of cozy romance that is dirty, like Honey Phillips, when she's on, can give you some like fluffy, seriously raunchy mind without, without using raunchy terminology I guess. But, but at the same time, there's gonna be spanking, there's gonna be penetration. There could be butt sex. Like she doesn't strike me as somebody who shies away from stuff. She just doesn't really particularly do the dark stuff. Right. Yeah. She's more Sweet Romance. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or even Susan Trombley is another one. So I recently, I love Susan Trombleys. I origin, I. I'm just gonna say origin. Yes. A test subject series. And she has a, she has the original series, which is very good, but gets dark. And then, I mean, darkish like, you know, Twilight not in the book. You know what I'm getting in my own way here? Verbally. It's darkish as in you're in a shaded room. Not dark as in the lights are out, if that makes sense. Okay. Anyway. Sure. There's some grim stuff in her, in her stuff, but it's not all grim. Dark super. Correct?

Yes. But then

Stacy:

she also has her sweet verse spinoff of the original test series. And I recently, my favorite in that series is my Primal Mate. And I recently got it on audio and I laughed my ass off. But she's like, there are parts in that book, there's literally laugh out loud, funny'cause there's a recurring joke where this like seven foot tall scaled alien as up having to work fast food. And he has, okay, please enjoy my spicy wiener when he hands them their hot dog. And they all, like all of the employees have like a tally that they keep for the number of times where somebody makes a lewd comment in response. But it's, but, but at the same time, like her, I can't remember the name. The species, God ara. So her ara are her sort of reptilian scaled species and they have what's called a howl or a hunt where, where they go into a mating hunt. They do this howl that is absolutely hair raising and terrifying. And he does it at a fucking Halloween haunted maze. Oh my goodness. And chases his potential mate through the maze and like shaves part of her costume off the whole time. But at the same time, when he finally gets her like the sex is super fucking hot. But this, the scenario is still fucking hilarious that he terrorizes an entire fucking haunted carnival by howling out in the, the shit out every human in, in like an 80 mile radius. It's really great.

It is really too bad that this is still just a podcast'cause I feel like there it would be great capturing like some semblance of Amy and I's facial expressions.

Stacy:

Oh yes. I tell you, whatever weird shit I'm reading this week. You should check out the series though. It's really fucking good. I'll, it starts with like, it's my chameleon mate is the first one, and I can't remember the others, but they're, excuse me, very sweet. Kind of more fluffy romance. But Susan probably also is somebody who doesn't shy away from s. When the spot's pretty hard hot and she does weird pins and the aian dick is called a mating hook'cause it's got a, a, a a, an almost like prehensile tip, or I'm sorry, a mating claw.'cause it's hooked like a claw. And it has to do with like how it like stimulates the cervix to open and I think it latches on and everything like that. So like, it depends, I mean it really does depend on like what your definition.. Like basically we're talking about like shades of deviancy here. And so I guess it depends mean. Well what is smut to you?

I mean, Stacy, you, what is smut to you? I'm kind to me smut is on page

Stacy:

sex where everybody's having fun.

Especially me.

Stacy:

Yeah.

I actually, yeah. I'm down with that. Yeah. Yeah. The door is open. One would say

Stacy:

the car doesn't exist.

Right. There's no door,

Amy:

two walls, it's just a bunch.

Stacy:

And the tickets were free and they gave you popcorn.

Amy:

And readers are the, the happy voyeurs.

Stacy:

Yes.

Amy:

Exactly. Hopefully, hopefully happy voyeurs. If they're not happy, then they shouldn't be reading it.

Stacy:

Yeah. Smut is fun for me. That's what it is. It's open door and it's fun. Mm-hmm. And that can include like dark romance where it's dark if it's dark. Mm-hmm. But I'm into it. I'm still having fun. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amy:

Honestly, I think one of the most prime examples I think of for this is probably doves and Demons by Cleo Evans. Mm-hmm. Because. Again, another reverse here. I'm sorry, Stacy, I really wish, wish you, I really wish you could read because I'm fascinating because Mort is, you would love Mort. Yeah. I believe you would love Mort. I'm

Stacy:

pretty sure I, I have a fan Art of Mort somewhere on my phone, so I can believe it.

Amy:

I mean, yes. James and Charles are, they're their own, their own level of sexy and spice, but there's just something about a shadow Daddy just gets to you, God, a shadow murder Daddy, I should say. Yes.

Stacy:

Fuck yes.

Amy:

I mean, that's probably about as close to dubious consent. I have, I have gotten to within within my reading so far. Mm-hmm. Because right

all scenes involve

Amy:

Mort and and Amelia, I believe her name is Amelia, or I can't, what is her name? Irene. That's her name. Okay. So Amelia, I was totally off the first time, but anyways, Irene and Mort, their scenes are just total, like, total utter steam fest, like mm-hmm. Sauna in the jungle. Right. See in the jungle on a volcano.

Stacy:

I think that actually brings a piece into play for me because for smut to be successful, for me, I need the possessive piece.

Hmm.

Stacy:

And a reverse harem by its nature. Like they might be possessive of like, no one else is allowed to touch'em, but I want the kind of possessive where it's like, if anybody touches my significant other, that's it. It's World War iii.

Yeah. No, it sort of touches on like, well, that, that's like, it's like character building. Mm-hmm. Like in some way. Like there's got to be, it's not like every character has to be sexually oriented or, or, you know, focused, but like, it's, if it's, whether it's a romance or erotica, it's got, there's gotta be something in that character's personality that we, the readers are allowed to see where we're like, wow, they are horny as hell. Right?

Stacy:

Mm-hmm.

I, I do think that's gotta be a thing.

Stacy:

It needs to be, they're horny as hell and that talks to me,

right? Yes. Right. And, and, and it come, and that can come in many different ways, like the possessive streak. Mm-hmm. Like meet your alpha holes and Right. Shadow daddies and whatnot. Well, and that's, God, I love, love

Stacy:

the words. I do too. I fucking love that. I think my favorite terminology that ever came out was when Morning Glory Milking Farm came out and the term brunch daddy was coined to describe Brunch Daddy. And I'm like, total brunch daddy. That's perfect. Let never, you know, let it never be said that language is not alive and fluctuating seriously. But that's actually part of, so you guys were tragically forced to witness when my vagina exploded and my cl turned into a rocket when I went and saw a nose Atu. And that is sexy to me, but it wasn't designed to be sexy because, or lock's possessiveness and obsession is what makes him sexy. Mm-hmm.

And that is

Stacy:

a big piece for me. For something to be successfully, like my preferred spice, like for it to hit like, you know, ghost chili for me, I've gotta have that possessive piece in it. That possessive, obsessive piece. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, that's part of the reason too, why I love Amanda Milo's Rocky so much her, her, her sort of dragon species is because they will literally emulate a perceived romantic rival. Now am I saying I actually want my significant other to go out and light the bus boy on fire?'cause he smiled at me. No, but the fact that he's thinking about it might get him in HJ later on. Hmm. Just say, look at that.

Amy:

Yeah. I gotta say, yeah. Mo Mart is definitely one of my ghost pepper. Yeah. And I can totally see that interest in, in there just because he, yeah. Yeah. Sanctuary of Kings was kind of that way too because maybe, maybe it had also been just, just a while that I'd read the other two. Because I, I, I, I think I waited like a year or so before I act, I finally read Sanctuary with Kings. Mm-hmm. Why? Why I waited. I have no idea. Maybe I just didn't want the story to end. Yeah. It needed to marinate in your TERA little bit. Maybe. Maybe I did. Granted, I will, I will admit this. I will admit this. My favorite of that, of that trilogy still is book two company aphis. And not just because of Hunter, though. He is definitely a very nice bonus'cause he's an or, but, right. Sounds like it. The way, the way they set it up with Ivania and and the, her, her men basically. Oh man. It just, it, she was also recovering from so much trauma that she had endured under the big bad from the entire trilogy. And basically she's a daughter of the, the goddess of hedonism. Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. And so she, she is, she is a demi goddess. I believe. So. Was

Stacy:

this like she. Const because of that connection. Like the idea, like she'll be the

freakiest. Yes. Basically. She's basically a succubus.

Amy:

Yeah. She serves as a, as a cornerstone, or you could say of the house that Bia had pretty much imprisoned her in for 200 years or so, and I'm just like being under that and the fact that she did not know if she could actually come to care about anyone. She had a lot of stuff to work through in such a short amount of time with all four males that are involved, which also included a sleeping dragon known as the king of dreams. My God, that was also very hot. That's a hot stuff going on in there. My goodness. I'm even Catherine Moon. I'm just saying I'm not gonna butcher our dragon's name because it is Welsh and I know I will mis pronounce it. I wanna say it's Howell Howwell Hoel. How's it, how's it spelled? Hoel? Hoel. But it's, it's like, it's spelled Hewell, H-Y-W-E-L-L, but I believe it's, I ain't touching

that

Amy:

with

a 10 foot.

Stacy:

Yeah, it's John Tempe not here. Tempe. Well, she could tell us how to pronounce it. Hmm. Because Howell and Howell's moving Castle is Welsh, but it's Howell, like we would spell it in in our world. Yeah. H-O-W-E-L-L. WL in the, the book.

Amy:

She kind of, she kind of goes into the pronunciation in the book itself, which I was kinda like, okay, try and stick with that. And sometimes I would have to flip back to them. I'm like, okay, that's what it's, man. But, but anyway, anyways, I was actually talking about this with a friend who'd also read all of them. This is my blogging friend. Mm-hmm. And she was thi she was saying that it was, the ending was kind of, it kind of went off without a bang. But then I was, I was telling her, well, maybe it really wasn't about bha just, you know, being defeated. It was about Ivania coming to, coming to realize that she was somehow able to mostly overcome her trauma, because that was a lot of stuff that she went

Stacy:

through. Right. It sounds, it kind of sounds like the entire book was the big bang and then there was no need for a big bang at the end because that was the entire story. I think so from the way you're describing

Amy:

it.

Mm-hmm.

Amy:

And honestly, yeah. Basically, but not everything has

Stacy:

to be, you know, explosions and lasers. So, no, of course not.

Amy:

But it was, it was a really good ending. I will say overall, this, the trilogy, highly recommend it is an average of four point, whatever.'cause it's like, I gave four stars to the first one and the third one, and the, the, the second one, I, I think like 4.25, God bless you. Story graph for letting me able to give quarter stars, half stars, three quarter stars and all that fun stuff.

Stacy:

I wish Amazon a little bit more. Oh yeah. Right. Or it's just not quite to that full. Like there are plenty of books that I would give a quarter star to rather than a full star, so, oh yeah. Yes.

You wanna give some nuance for some stuff?

Stacy:

Mm-hmm.

Oh, something that I want to ask y'all's opinion on, I have this question down'cause I like, I've actually been kind of curious. I use these words interchangeably. Okay. And I don't know if, and if there is actually like some sort of like secret code out there. What do y'all think is the difference between s muddy, steamy and spicy? When do you one or the other? I use'em interchangeably.

Stacy:

Steamy I would use as on the lighter end.

Amy:

Yeah.

Stacy:

Okay. That's fair. Steam. But they're like, or, so it'd be more along the, it would be more akin to it's there's smoke, but there's no fire. Ah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? So steamy, I mean, granted, I know steam and smoke aren't the same thing, but, you know, same kind of thinking of I guess like tea. Yeah. Almost. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're, you're you're not in a full boil yet. Yeah. That would, I can see that. Honestly. IS muddy and, and what was the third one? So was steamy Sy and Spicy. Spicy. Spicy and s mud or interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.

Amy:

Yeah, I think that's true too. Like with steamy, it can actually go into the closed door business if you ask me, because

Stacy:

Ooh,

Amy:

yeah, sure. Yeah.

Stacy:

The that young adult series I was telling you guys about a while ago, it's how to Train Your Goblin King. Ooh. Is kind of that way where there's, there's, I don't think anything really happens. I don't even think that they technically have sex in the book, if I remember correctly. Mm. But there again, there's a lot of that emotional edging and then there's kissing at the end of it. Yeah. And, and I would say that that was steamy, but, but not explicit basically. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I,

Amy:

yeah, I would put Bella, the Bella Donna Trilogy by Adeline Grace. There're definitely too, and that one's definitely ya. But I would also put the Emily Wild Series there as well, because there is a level of steam in, at least in the first. Yes, Emily Wild Encyclopedia Fairies. And then in Emily Wild's map of the other lands. And now we're getting the third one, which might be the final one. I don't know for sure, but it's Emily Wild and the compendium of Lost Tails, which I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive hopefully this week or this next week.

Stacy:

I had a copy of Good Fairy's, bad Fairies by Brian. Proud that unfortunately didn't make it outta the fire. No, and I got it. I I autographed by him and he walked really hard. No, it's even worse. I know. I told him that I used it as a disciplinary measure with my nieces and nephews. And he goes, how do you mean? I said, I hit him with it. He says, that's exactly how I wanted my book to be used. Bless. He was very nice. He's also, we Tiny and Toby the baby from Labyrinth is his son. And made change when I bought my print from him. And he is also, we tiny, like they're like five two max. That's hilarious. It was, I and my friend Cindy and I were g were giggling afterwards'cause we're like, the baby from Labyrinth just made change from my fucking print from Brian Crowd.

Amy (2):

So cute. I love

that. They were, they were

Stacy:

both very, very, very sweet.

As someone who's five three, I love a short king'cause. Oh yeah. I can actually look at'em in the eye. It's nice, the vibe I get

Stacy:

as someone who's five nine, I just wanted to pet their hair and tell'em how cute they were. Oh,

I should also be very upfront. My father is a short king. I did not appreciate growing up. Like this is how confident he is. In being short. I did not realize that there is like a thing called like short man syndrome or that a hundred

Amy (2):

percent. Mm-hmm. Dudes

feel just uncomfortable. Yes. I had no damn clue. Dudes feel uncomfortable being short because I was raised by my dad. Mm-hmm. Who was always super confident.

Stacy:

Yeah. But part of it too though, is you're short. Yeah. People who were like Amy and I height who deal with assholes like that, that's, yeah.'cause they're, they're somehow, they somehow decided that they're emasculated. Yeah.'cause I broke five nine. Mm-hmm. His opinion. And so then it tries, they try to turn it into a pissing contest when you're just like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Amy:

Yeah. My thing was I would sometimes get crushes on some of my classmates in, I in karate and they were

all short me.

Amy:

I remember they were, they asked me, they were in, they were in high school. I was 13, and they asked, or they were like, I can't wait to get my driver's license. Don't you know Amy? I'm like. Few years? No, because we're peers. Yeah, because we

Stacy:

didn't realize that my lives No. Like, I, I like being short does not have to be a deal breaker. Like, did you guys ever see Planet Terror and God Damnit, what was the other one? It was the Grindhouse yeah, duology. That Robert Rodriguez and

Amy:

Yeah.

Stacy:

Quentin Tarran. Tito did, it was Planet Terror. Mm-hmm. And what the, and I think the other one was just called, I thought the other, I can't remember. Planet Terror is the one I'm talking about. Oh, whatever. Well, the, the two together was, it was the Grindhouse double feature, but each of them has, it has a, has a title. I can't remember the name of, I can't remember which one was Planet Terror. I think Planet Terror was Robert Rodriguez's one. And the actor did, did you guys ever see that was she had the machine gun leg? Yes. So the actor, but I am

intrigued.

Stacy:

Watch it. It's so goddamn fun. I cannot remember the name of the actor who plays Rose Miguel's Love Interest in Robert Rodriguez's. Thing. I wanna say it's his name's like David Rodriguez or something, and there's no relation, but he's like five three. And he is so goddamn hot in that movie that it's like, yeah, fuck yeah. I'd have fucked him and let him put a machine gun leg on my leg when zombies ate my leg off. Like legit. He is so bad. Damn hot in that movie.

Amy:

Ready? Rodriguez.

Stacy:

Rodriguez. That's it. He is so fucking hot in that movie because he is all just like swagger and dick. That man is not intimidated by anybody. And he makes these comments about, he says, I my first shot's always a bullseye. And then it becomes a euphemism for why he knocked her up at the end. But he was so goddamn hot in that. And I am somebody who like, I like big burly fucking bruisers, but if a guy is confident, it doesn't fucking matter how tall he's

there. Is something about just having the straight up charisma, the, a solid charisma role in life can get you so far.

Stacy:

Definitely. Fucking sure. There is nothing that's as much of a turn on as confidence. Mm-hmm.

Amy:

Just don't let it go overboard into arrogance, please. Yes. Right. Although I,

Stacy:

I will say, I'm still fucking weirded out that even though I loved, I ended up loving the book Lizzie Strong's deal with the Devil. Really good. Highly recommend. I'm definitely buying it. Mm-hmm. I just don't know why she had to make a point of saying he was five foot seven at the beginning of it, and I was just like, well, okay. Because it never became a thing in the book. It was never like people looked down on him for his size or anything like that. It was just like that was a fact. That's

fine.

Stacy:

It was her big lip alligator moment, I guess. I guess like if she had just said nothing, it would've been fine, but instead Yeah. I'm, I'm weirded out by that. Anyway, really good book though. I recommend it. Especially if you have like dom sub leaning. It's very hot. There's collar play. Two thumbs up.

Oh, another like, basic question I definitely wanna ask'cause we've been like playing around with, with like the, making a difference between romance and erotica. Mm-hmm. And I want to also talk about y'all's thoughts on where, where is that line in, in the smart world between erotica and romance. And most importantly, I don't think some people realize that there is a difference.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I would say for me the difference erotica doesn't have to have a happy ending. However, that being said, if it doesn't have a happy ending, I'm not reading it.

Yeah,

Stacy:

same here.

Yeah, no, I concur. Like

Stacy:

have a happily ever after and I don't care what dumb bitch comes along and thinks that they're gonna reinvent romance by saying romance doesn't have to have a happy ending. Yes, it does. Sit down, shut the fuck up your time Or your, your people have come and gone. We weren't interested before. We're not interested now.

Yeah. It's like having a mystery and you don't figure out who done it. Exactly. Yeah. It's just mysterious

Amy:

that, that ambiguous never Oh my gosh. Especially from mysteries. You cannot have an ambiguous ending. It don't work.

Stacy:

And that's, that defeats the fucking purpose of a mystery. Yeah. If, if I, if I wanted it unru or if I wanted to be remain frustrated, we would just call it a frustration.

Um, I should also add another thing that I think is a differentiator between erotica and romance for me is what is the plot arching, arching towards? Mm-hmm. Yes. Is it arching towards a. Is it arching towards like that, that love, is it Right, that couple focus? Mm-hmm. It like the emotion because like there's an emotional element Yeah. To it as much sex as there is going on. Like that's not really a compelling story to be like the fucked and happily ever after. Right.

Stacy:

The thing I would think of is like most of the books that I like, not all of them, but, but a good chunk of them could probably be classified as erotica. Mm-hmm. They're romances, but they could probably also be classified as erotica because there is very explicit on scene sex. And, and there tends to be a lot of it. Mm-hmm. Like, not overwhelmingly, but like, you're gonna get more than, usually more than one scene. You know, like that kind of thing. Oh yeah. Not, obviously not all erotica is romance. And I do feel like though, to be qualified as erotica and not just porn, there has to be an emotional component of some kind. It doesn't necessarily have to be that there's a romantic component between the two participants, but there has to be some kind of character development or death, some kind of an emotional response. From the reader to what you're reading other than this makes me horny.

I, I, I think that is actually, I think qualify

Stacy:

the erotica.

Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise we still have to like, follow roughly the whole Right. Save the cat beats.

Stacy:

Yeah. Basically. Because, because pornography is only there to Tate and I'm not, I have no issue with pornography. I'm a fan of pornography if I'm in the right mood. But pornography is only there to get you off. Whereas Erotic Feather has to have more of a, a, there has to be more than just your bits involved,

right? Is that right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where was, where did this character start? Where did they end? Or what are they,

Stacy:

what are they striving towards? Because like, you could do erotica, like say you, you have a story where it's like, maybe, and I'm just pulling this wholesale outta my ass. Speaking of erotica, anyway it could be a case of like, let's say we have a woman who just got out of an unsuccessful marriage and she's been sexually unfulfilled in that marriage, and so she decides to have a one night stand, and the whole focus of her having a one night stand is to help herself feel sexual again. Like that could be the entire arc of the story. We don't even need to know the name of the person that she partners with. And, you know, you go with her through her sexual interaction and she successfully has an orgasm or whatever it is that she's seeking out of this. And then the story ends with her happy and more confident because she feels like she's reclaimed a part of herself. Like that could a hundred percent be an example of erotica That I give a shit about her. Definitely. Yeah. I give a shit about her, her, her sexual in in, in interactions are an integral part of the story, but it's still a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Whereas porn, it doesn't really have to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. You just need enough stimulation to be titillated, achieve your own orgasm, because nobody has ever started watching or reading like pornography and been like, well, now I'm invested. I've already come, but now I gotta see own

end.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It's always like, alright, I came like three times, I'm done. You know? Yeah. We'll save this for another time.

Right. If you need to, you can pick up where you left off, you missed nothing. Right.

Stacy:

Right. If you feel like you're gonna go again, maybe you leave it up in your browser. Like for me, my go-to for porn is eroica. And so it would be, yeah. Like, it could be like, I don't leave this story up. This is, this is pretty good. You know, I maybe I'm gonna wanna go again in a couple hours or maybe tomorrow, so we'll just leave this here. It's right there. Then I don't have to go searching for it when I'm in the mood again.

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Speaking with you guys, Jesus Christ. I let my vibrator and Michael Zucker die. I didn't charge them for like three days and by the time I got them charged, I was so. God damn horny that I, I think I almost like devolved into like my sexual ID and I was just like gonna run around and just start grinding on anything that held still for long enough. Like seriously. I have been horned up before, but this was bad'cause I also think I was ovulating. Oh. And so, oh yeah, no, like anything that was vaguely valid. It was like, hold still, this won't take long.

Amy (2):

Oh, I'm sorry. I was gonna say that sanctuary of kings could definitely fall into the erotica thing too, but Oh, for sure. For

sure. I would call it erotica romance. Yes. Erotic romance. Romantic.

Stacy:

Yeah. Romantic erotica. Sure.

Yeah.

Stacy:

Yeah. Like it honestly sounds like a Lady of R's great manner would really fall under the header of erotica too. Easily.

Easily agreed. Agreed. Easily. Like, yeah. If you took away the sex from any of those books, there would not be much of a story. Right. Really just

Stacy:

there's still emotional investment in characters that,

and, and I don't say I, and I don't make that statement being like, it's all porn and no plot or be any plot. Mm-hmm. I mean, like, you really do need those sex scenes in order to appreciate character development and platforms. Hundred percent.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, that's

part of

Stacy:

the reason why edging is so successful. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like if you weren't invested in a character, then you wouldn't give a shit that they were getting horn up. Yeah. And you were getting horned up with them. Mm-hmm. One of the best examples of payoff that I can think of in recent memory is Dr. Darko, a surgeon of London, or, or rather a sorcerer in London, which was that book I told you guys about. I think I read it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In December, maybe, maybe. I'm pretty sure it was December, I think it was Christmas ish that I was reading that. And that's like a, that's a chunk book, like, it's like 600 pages. And they, the woman who wrote it, this was her first novel. I can't think of the author's name off the top of my head, but I a hundred percent, 10000% recommend that you get this book because I read it on KU and immediately bought it. But the payoff is so fucking good because they don't fuck until, like, they don't even kiss until probably the last a hundred pages of the book. And the woman who wrote it actually has, I think her master's and maybe her PhD in like Victorian literature. So she, and like she's, I wanna say she's a. And not just Victorian, but like 19th century literature because I wanna say she has some kind of laurels for knowing shit about pride and prejudice. And she a hundred percent wrote this book in that language. And then when they fuck they fuck. And it was really fucking funny too, because I was reading the reviews.'cause I, I was in this book and I was like, well, you know, she's going for like a deliberately Victorian vibe. Maybe she's just like, it's just gonna be like closed door or implied or something like that. Because Victorian she's going for the whole Yeah, well, but, but, but they're also not saying like, he slammed his cock into her on page. You know what I mean?

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's

Stacy:

what I was thinking. Maybe she was going for that. But there was definitely like she did the slow burn, you combust with them. Oh wow. Chef's Kiss, honest to god. One of my favorite reads in, in, in probably the last 10 years. But the funny part was, was'cause I was, I was skimming some of the reviews when I was a little bit more than halfway through.'cause I was wondering are they gonna have on page sex? And I was seeing a lot of people who were like, you know, there's a little scheme. It's not much I skimmed, you know, I started skimming towards the end and I was just like, all right, well you're an idiot because this language is delicious and I wanna roll in it, but whatever. And then I read it and then you get to the part where they smash and it is on fucking page smashing. It's really fucking funny.'cause it's like, well, you started skimming in exactly the wrong point then person, because then for the last a hundred pages they fuck a lot. But, but that's, you know, that's, that's, that could almost be its own form of erotica, even though if you took all of the sexual stuff out of the book. It's this fascinating, compelling, like supernatural mystery. And there's even a couple of points in it where I was reading it and it genuinely scared the shit out of me.'cause there's like a, there's this whole recurring thing where there's these tunnels under London that the sorcerers use as shortcuts to get around. And there's this scene where people are being hunted by this ghost white entity through it. And it was absolutely hair raising. But but by the time they come together, like it was one of the most like, erotic things that I had read because you were so fucking invested in it. And then when they finally did it, like it was that conflagration, you know what I mean? Where you went from nothing to like full fucking bonfire because this fire, you know, like, like the kindling for this fire was laid so perfectly that by the time the match was put to it, that it had been smoldering and then it burst into flames. If that makes sense.

Yeah. Man, that sounds, it sounds like a very ideal, like slow burn. Yes.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm. Oh no, this is, this is, this is the gold standard of slow burns. Like sincerely

damn. And

Stacy:

again, it's a chunky book, but it's. But the whole book isn't just you going, oh, for the love of fuck, are they gonna smash? Mm-hmm. No, the whole time you're like, what do the fairies have to do with it? What about this? What about that? Oh my gosh, that's pretty good. No, it's so good. That is nice. It's good. She comes up with like, her own sort of take on magic and like the, the, the fair folk play into it. And the one of the antagonists is a very scary representation of the fa folk who are also, some of them are tied to hell. And so, like, there's a whole thing with that and it's, it's, it's so goddamn good, you guys. It's so fucking good.

Hey, this is one of the reasons why I do love it when like when authors will combine like monster romance, but then add in more like thrilling bits. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well this

Stacy:

one, this I, you could classify this as a monster romance, but he is, or at least originally was human, so she's not getting with the fairy guy, the fairy guy's a bad guy. Horse face, I believe is the delightful insult that they come up with for him through the, the course of the book horse face. But the guy that she does end up with is very much a human monster, and he deliberately made himself that way. So, but it's so, it's so, it's so fascinating. It's so fucking good. Very heavy themes of like. The underworld, sort of a Hades and Persephone, except Persephone goes looking for kind of her own undoing.

Mm.

Stacy:

It's not the the virgin snatched from the field of wildflowers. It's the woman searching. I mean,'cause Elizabeth, the main character is she's after revenge, basically.

Mm.

Stacy:

And it's, it's, and her rationale for seeking revenge is completely like Ian and completely understandable. Her dickhead husband gets himself killed by something magical and his will is shittily written, and so she's left with nothing.

Yeah. Oh,

Stacy:

delightful. And so she wants revenge on the, the assholes who blew up her comfortable, if not romantic life, basically.

Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, so one of the questions I had are, are there tropes that lend themselves to more smut than others? And, you know, kind of interestingly like the, the slow burn, it's actually, I'm over here thinking like breeding kink and size difference. And I'm like, slow burn. But yeah. Where's the lie? Yeah.

Stacy:

Where's the lie? Yeah. It's, it's, but again, because honestly what human sexuality is so fluid. That you really can't have strict parameters on what is the hottest thing you've ever read. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.'cause if you're edge enough that by the time they finally like, what? I was like, like that, how to train your goin king, like there's no on-page sex, but by the time they kiss you're like, fucking yes. Thank you. Finally. Or like either of you guys ever read the Amelia Peabody Mysteries?

No.

Stacy:

Oh, they're so, they're so fun. I know of them. I was, I was legit obsessed with them about 20 years ago. And they're just this great mystery series and it's based the woman who writes them as an actual Egyptologist. And it's set, the first books are set in like eight to 1880s. And it's a young woman, Amelia Peabody, whose father dies and leaves her his fortune. And so she decides that because she's been the dutiful, submissive, obedient daughter. She's the spinster. And she decides, fuck it, I'm going to Egypt. And this is during that craze, you know, when Europeans became fixated on Egypt and you know, they have like lu and wrapping parties and, you know, find all kinds of ways to, to face corpses. And she goes to Egypt and she ends up meeting an Egyptologist named Emerson, who's a complete asshole. And they fall in love with each other and eventually end up getting married. But the thing is, is while illusions are made to them having sex, there's never on page sex with them. So it's, it gets to the point where it's, you're so invested in this couple and you love them so much. That when it implies that they're gonna smack because it's, it's gonna be, there's gonna be a, a paragraph break, then they go to the next chapter.'cause again, there's never on page facts, but those last like three sentences before you get to that, you're just like, oh yeah, that's good stuff. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Like it's that it really depends on like what you have going into it, to what will trigger being the most, like arousing, intoxicating aspects of it. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just actually over here thinking of I was over here thinking of the breeding kink most specifically. Mm-hmm. And like, I'm, I'm just over here in my, my little A DHD mind and being like, I can't get rid of this focus. Like, oh, hey, I have

Stacy:

a huge breeding kink, so I'm down.

Oh, yeah. But like, I, I'm thinking of like, yeah, actually. I'm thinking of moon moon blood breeding clinic csa. Yeah. C ssa. Yeah. And like, yeah, there is breeding kink in there, but I'm like, you know what? That's actually not even the, the I most, I don't really think that qualifies

Stacy:

as, as actual breeding kink. Yes. For me. Yeah. So you No, that's actually a good point. Yeah. It's not, I I'm like, and that's not a, again, that's not, I love c Kosta. Yeah. But that's, that's not a, she does not like the breeding thing, I don't think is her bag, honestly. No. I'm trying to think of the, the Mino tar book that I was telling you guys about the, Oh, escaping the friend zone. Mm-hmm.

Yes. I've gotta read that one.

Stacy:

It's great. Loved it. I'm absolutely gonna buy it. That is actually great because a, they do a great job of sort of explaining the emotional need behind a daddy character.

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And it's not, it's not, so it's daddy don little girl, but there's no age play, so you don't have to worry about anything weird about like that. Right, right. Like when I say I'm looking for a daddy, this is what I want. Basically, like, this is a textbook example of it, but he talks like, like he talks in the Wesley, the, the, the Mita talks in the book about how he's ambivalent towards being a father, but the idea of knocking her up is like this huge turn on. And so like they do have a breeding kink, even though they're actually taking precautions so that she doesn't actually get pregnant. But like, you know, they talk about, you know, he talks about how he's gonna, you know, like use his fat bull, his, his daddy Bullock to, you know, fuck a baby into her. You know, like that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. Like that to me qualifies as breeding kink. Or I also really like when there's a breeding kink where they think it's not possible between the two characters. Mm-hmm. And then she ends up knocked up. That, that's one of my fucking favorites.

Amy:

That is a fun one. See, that's the funny thing though, I think, okay, so I have pregnancy aversion. Y'all, y'all know this. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's someone who's been

pregnant. I get it. Actually, that is a hundred

Amy:

percent viable. But anyways the idea that, that the whole breeding kink doesn't necessarily have to have the end result of actually being bred and impregnated. That is actually a huge relief to me because I, I, I actually think of the meme. Basically. There's this character's like, it's like, breed me. No pregnant, just breed. I'm like, okay, I'm down with this. Yeah. I have like, I'm down with this because I don't want to get pregnant, but I don't mind if you go at it to where it's, you want me to, but we don't.

There we go.

Stacy:

Well, and, and I think I like, like everything else we're talking about, I think that there is a sliding scale because I think I'm at like the extreme end because I love the whole, like, like I was talking earlier to you with ej, like I think lactation play is super hot. I think pregnancy, sex on in books can be super hot. I love when and in fact in my own stuff that I'm writing, pregnancy obsession is kind of built in because there's a whole thing where it's like, in my stuff, it's like 90% of the universe is male. I won't go into it. Because it's really goddamn boring to listen to somebody else hijacking conversations, talk about their own shit. I'll tell you off camera how I know anyway. But I have like, I think I have like the extreme end of it where I find everything that has to do with it super duper fucking hot. There's a, a book by Nancy Cummings called the Warlord's Baby in the Mod Felt series.

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Where I think one of the hottest sex scenes I've read is her post delivery by, I, I think a couple weeks, and maybe it's just a couple of days. And obviously she can't have penetrative sex, but there's a very sweet scene where he performs oral on her very carefully in the shower.

Hmm. And, and

Stacy:

I would, I think that, that, that, and it's kind of his way, like, he's like, like she feels gross. Like she's just had a baby. Parts of her are still stitched together, you know, and he makes a point of like loving on her, like post pregnancy, bo a belly and tells her how beautiful she is and then performs oral on her. And it was this incredibly sexy, but also just incredibly touching scene. And it was a great way for the two characters to reconnect because the whole. Thrust of the book is Mercy is feeling further and further and further away from pacs, like he's leaving her behind. Mm-hmm. And and so like, I find that kind of thing hot, but I think you can absolutely have a breeding kink where it's just like the threat of, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, breathe my, my little submissive whatever with my dominant daddy dick. You know what I mean? Like, like that. Or I'm gonna fuck you until you put a baby in me. Like, if, if your personal kink goes the other way. Or it could just be, maybe neither of you are dom sub and maybe you're just like, turned on by fluid. I mean like, like think about Finley's books. Yeah. Like, like there's a lot of fluid in that buckets. So you can honestly tie that into of income or seed. Excuse me. Yeah. Seed. I mean, semen worship is a thing. Mm-hmm. But, you know, but I think, I feel like you could kind of like maybe tie that a little bit into it too. You know what I mean? Hmm. So really I think breeding kink as a term covers a much wider sort of pasture than what we're, what maybe what we initially think of out the gate. Like, it doesn't have to end in penis, goes in vagina. Vagina, it ends up impregnated. Right. Am I making sense or am I just like talking to myself in circles? No, no. I'm,

I'm like sitting

Stacy:

and being like, this is all very good points if you wanna see it actually. An awesome, and at the time, completely, I think. Known to the public at large example of a breeding kink. They did it in scrubs. Huh? One of the characters got pregnant. I think it was when JD was with, I think it was when Elizabeth Banks was on the show. There was a whole thing where she had a pregnancy and then lied and told him she miscarried the baby and then moved and had the baby. I don't remember what happened from that,'cause I think I was tuning out by that point, but there is a recurring thing where Elliot and her boyfriend she's telling him to, to fuck a baby into her. And he's just like, but you told me wear a condom. She's like, yeah, we're a condom. I don't actually want a baby. I just wanna pretend. And, and I, and the whole thing like, like, that's like, it's the, like the c story that RINs through the entire episode, but it's very obvious from today's perspective that Elliott had a breeding kink.

Liz:

Wow. The stuff I would've never guessed. Huh. That's a good point. Holy shit. Anyway, today I

learned there is breeding kink

Stacy:

in scrubs. Yep. I mean, I, I'm sure that the people of Scrubs when they wrote it were just like, this would be funny. They weren't like, let's sneak in a breeding kink. You know what I Right, right. Almost

certainly. They were not like, this is for the book Talk girl. Right. Exactly. Not at all.

Stacy:

It's, it's didn't exist at that point.

Amy:

Right. Well, honestly, remember Monster Romance has been around for also much longer than nowadays. It's just a much more popular now. Yes.

Stacy:

The entire fucking thrust of the original UR of Crete story is Monster fucking Romance. Except they gave it a downer ending because I don't think they realized they could give it a happy ending.

Amy (2):

Yeah. Because it was supposed to. Well, that's why now we do give it a happy

Stacy:

ending. Yep, sure do. Damn straight. That specific miniature has gotten a happy ending so many fucking times that Oh

my gosh. Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And I, and I fucking support the hell out of it.

Amy:

I agree. I am so with you. Now, Stacy, you had also brought up in the Mod Fell book how basically she couldn't have penetrated sex. That actually brought to mind one of my other favorite books, and I have read it twice. I've absolutely loved it. I will continue to reread it because it is a comfort read. And that is Barry and Greed by Lily Maine, and probably one of the few books by heard that I, that I was reading. Yeah, I remember you.

Stacy:

That really like, like resonated with you.

Amy:

Yes, it did. Because I mean, it's basically darl ha for, for the, for the listeners, Darryl has vaginismus in which she cannot have penetrative sex. Right. Vagina ultimately hurt her. Yeah. And greed, who is, I forget what they are, but they're, they're pretty much underworld, demon type character. Yeah. He's like a demon. Yeah. But they're, he's, he's very sweet and he is very understanding and he's willing to work with her and find out how he is able to please her. But it's just, it's so hilarious how their relationship started.

Stacy:

Isn't he? Isn't he like an, like an incubus or something? Some,

some,

Stacy:

I thought there was a sexual component, but maybe not. Maybe I'm misremembering.

Amy:

Well, no, no. The sexual component is basically, she's from a cult compound where they worship them as se as sex. Oh, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he is completely weirded out by that shit. So he picked, picked, he picked the one, the one cult member would not have viewed him as such. Yes. A weird, but the way they go about it, the way they go about their intimate moments is just, just watching their friendship go from, you know, roommates to friends and then to ultimately lovers and oh my gosh, it's just so

Amy (2):

good. It's such a good story.

Stacy:

Well, and that's something that's so sweet too. Like that's why friends to lovers, if it's done right, can be absolutely. Like, just make your heart feel like it's gonna explode in your chest. Mm-hmm. Because you're so root for these people. Yeah. And then when they finally like, start to, to like put two and two together. Yes.

Amy:

I love. That's such good. I will always highly recommend that one. I still haven't read shots on Barbs yet, but I have heard good things.

Stacy:

Is that in the same series?

Amy:

Yes. It actually features Greed's Big Brother Uni. Oh, okay.

Stacy:

Super cool. I don't think I read anything

Amy:

though in first book, so I'm kind of like e So

Stacy:

we might be kind of

Amy:

the alpha hole maybe.

Stacy:

Yeah. Milana Jackson is really the only person who could land the Alpha hole well, for me, as far as I'm concerned. Mm-hmm. And Loki Renard. But I also think both of them are potentially insane, and I mean that in all the best ways possible.

Amy:

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Because I fucking love their books.

Amy:

Yeah. That act. Okay. So various and greed actually made me think, I finally read my first Regina Bay book. I told you guys Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I read, I married E Van. Mm-hmm. Loved name

Stacy:

is Abe.

Amy:

I have no idea. That's, I, I thought that that's was how y'all pronounced it.

Stacy:

I just call her Regina Bell, but I, now that you mentioned it, I thought I, she might, is she French Canadian? She is Canadian,

Amy:

but I don't know if she's French Canadian. Regina Bell, she's bilingual,

Stacy:

so she, I think she, if it's who I'm thinking of, she is French Canadian. I don't know how she pronounces her last name though.

Amy:

I also know she's coming to the Monster erotica book calling. Yes, I know. That's one of the main reasons why I wanted to read more of her. I gotta send, I wanted to read her stuff too. Money to, so I'm gonna try

Stacy:

next month, Amy, to get that money to you so you can get the omnibus for me. I'm so I'll definitely,

Amy:

I wanna get it for myself too. But anyways though, because of how this one is set up, it's basically set up as strangers, you know, joining. Yeah. It's like an arranged, it's an arranged marriage basically. It's an arranged marriage. And to see it in the monster romance world is fascinating.

Stacy:

Yeah.

Amy:

cause there's, I love that differences between humans and whatever their monster slushie. I love,

Stacy:

I love in the, the wedding scene where like, she's supposed to be naked and she's like, I can't do that. So she wears the flesh colored body suit. I thought that was great.

Amy:

Yes. Well, she did the research. He didn't get the chance to for all. Yeah. Yeah. It's a doll though. Oh my God.

Stacy:

Yeah. Alex is an absolute love. And I love his sister too.

Amy:

Yes. She was adorable. I, I love, I just love, I love people.

Stacy:

Love

Amy:

all of

Stacy:

them. Were great. And I can't

Amy:

wait to read the next

Amy (2):

one.

Stacy:

I think you'll really is the second one I married in nga. Yes. You'll love it. That one's really fucking good. She also does excellent epilogues. I love her Epilogues. Her epilogues give you like everything that you wanted from those characters.

Amy:

I cannot wait. I cannot wait. It's gonna be so much. Yeah. I married to Naga is excellent.

Stacy:

Mm-hmm.

Amy:

What I really love about her Naga is that he looks like a, a snake.

Stacy:

Yes. He looks like a snake. He looks like a snake. She did a, she did a really cool thing too with it where,'cause they all have hoods. Mm-hmm. But the hood can, the hood is only extended if they're like agitated, otherwise it drapes like hair, which I thought was kind of a cool touch. That is neat. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing that I mean, not the same thing, but in a, in a similar vein as what Alexis B. Osborne did in my porn star or made for the alien porn star, where they're his, I shouldn't say his, because they're non-binary. Their species is, they're ixi opioids. So they're fish based. Yes. And so they don't have hair, but they do have a fin on their head and the fin drapes to one side. So they look like they've got this like, super cool, sexy undercut.

Amy:

Nice. I fucking love that book. I need to reread it. Oh my goodness. So what,

so one segment, I do want to be sure that we bring into this discussion,'cause I think it would round it out really nicely mm-hmm. Is to talk about smut shaming.

Stacy:

Oh

yes.

Stacy:

Here we go. Oh yeah, they did. So first of all, I would just like to say it as somebody who's, sorry, lemme climb up on my fucking soapbox here. As somebody who's been reading romance novel, literally since the eighties, I started way too goddamn damn young. Going to high school, trying to read a romance novel meant that you always had a piece of folded paper with you that you held over the cover. So nobody gave you a fucking hard time because there was always a clinch on the cover. You might get lucky and have a step back cover, but usually the clinch was on, like if it was a Joanna Lindsay, it was on the fucking front cover and the number of times, and it was always high school boys, high school girls were like, I got you.'cause I'm probably doing the same thing. The number of high school boys who tried to come over and like poke fun at me or sear at me because I was reading a fucking romance novel. Just makes me to this day. I wanna go back into my fucking senior year algebra, tri class and Rage flip that desk that I was sitting in because fucking Brian from eight rows over had to come over and see what I was quietly reading by myself before schools before class started and make fun of me for it. So smut shaming is nothing new. And we're going to get through what the dip shits are trying to pull now. Just like we got through the dip shits back then. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

Same dip shits different shit. Oh yeah,

Stacy:

same dip shits different location.

I, yeah, it, I, I think it's like ultimately I, I view it as, I, I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable with a, because, because, let's, let's be frank, like there, there are some'cause of puritans

Stacy:

tell the truth and shame the devil. Some goddamn puritans still fucking up everybody's party 300 years later.

Yeah. Yeah. There, it, it's, there's a puritan aspect I think to American culture. There's, yep. And like, man, there is nothing makes a small man feel more intimidated than women. Taking control of their own sexuality. Oh, fuck yes. Mm-hmm. In any, any aspect, this is just one tiny way that they're like, Nope. Can't have that.

Stacy:

Nope. Well, if you look, look at it through the lens of history, like, so much of history has been about controlling women's sexuality. Like always the church tried to control women's sexuality. The idea of chivalric love was controlling women's sexuality because that was supposed to be nonsexual and purely romantic. Pre Christianity coming in and smothering the joy out of everyone. The fucking Greeks and Romans did it too, where women were either licentious, half-formed men who couldn't control their sexuality. And let's not forget the old roaming uterus thing. And that true love was only between two dudes because you couldn't get pregnant from it. Sure. Okay. Why not? And like, just on and on and on and on through history today, we're still battling the goddamn Madonna whore syndrome and so many fucking people. And I'm over it. I'm fucking over it. Leave me alone to read my fucking smut and peace. I ain't reading it out loud to you, but if you keep fucking pushing it, I'm gonna, and then you'll have a reason to bitch. God, I love you, Stacy. Yeah, me too. Thank you. I love you too. Oh, thank you for listening to me, bitch.

I, I, I, I, I'm just really, I am appreciative of your Valkyrie cry over there. Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

I'm

just

Stacy:

tired of mind, don't you? Goddamn, damn business. Mm-hmm. Yes. That's the boil down. That is the boil down to everything that makes me angry is mind your goddamn business.

Amy:

Yes. I mean, you're not okay. Me reading my, my romance novel, my, my smut novel or whatever is not hurting you. Exactly. Why are you trying to make out that? It is? Because it is not

Stacy:

clearly, it's the same shit. It's just me. Yes. When people were melting down because gay marriage was legalized, because, you know, we have to be up in, in, in the business of two people living their own fucking lives in their own fucking homes. It was this, somebody used the, the, the perfect euphemism, which was the idea of you going into subway and getting what you wanted on your sandwich, and the guy behind you yelling at you that you weren't allowed to do it because he doesn't like it.

Yeah.

Stacy:

It's the same fucking shit with romance novels. And part of it too is, again, it's that whole idea of if it's for women, it has to be second class citizen, because, I mean, think about how roundly mocked romance has been as a genre, essentially. Essentially from its inception.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Stacy:

That's not When are you gonna read a real book? When are you gonna write a real book? Mm-hmm. My friend Cindy is a, so my friend Cindy Diamond is her writing name. I hundred percent recommend everybody read her shit because it's so goddamn good. She's also Amy. I think you would love her. She's very consent heavy. Mm-hmm. But she has had so many fucking people ask her, well, when are you gonna write a real book? Well, I don't know, bitch, these have pages and it, it hurt if I hit you upside the head with it, so I'm gonna go out. Actually,

Amy:

it's like, please.

Stacy:

Oh, it's not a real book. How real is it now? Exactly. No, you can't press charges. It's not a real book, he said. So

yeah, I'm thinking of this one influencer I follow. I think a lot of people do romantically inclined, she does a lot of reels. Mm-hmm. On Instagram. She might be on on TikTok, but I don't, I think's on

Amy:

the server, isn't she?

I think. I think so. She's a fan of Thin. I think I follow her on Instagram.

Stacy:

I'm pretty sure I do.

I definitely follow her on Instagram. And I think one of the creepiest, weirdest critiques that she gets as a romance reader is, was your husband. Think of this. Oh,

Stacy:

yeah. Or you get the rando stranger who's like, I'll show you what real sex is like. No thanks. I can be disappointed on my own.

Right. I think, well, I just think it's absolutely fascinating whenever people bring in your spouse to it. Yeah, yeah. When you're a woman, and especially in, they're assuming that your spouse is a man. Yeah. Because it's very much like,

Stacy:

oh, I'm just looking. You must be sexually unfulfilled because you're reading this,

right? Mm-hmm. And yeah. You know, you're, you clearly don't care about your husband. I'm over here. Like, he never asked you to police me.

Stacy:

Right. Well, and the other thing too is dudes who are secure themselves, no, no buyer the book.'cause she's gonna fuck your brains out after she

finishes up. Actually, yes, this is actually true. True. Is

Stacy:

this is in your best interest. Yeah,

yeah. No,

Stacy:

Well, and Cindy made the point years ago, years before she became a published writer, that she was so happy when she finally got a Kindle because she could quietly read her romance novel. At the time, she was working a receptionist job for a museum in La Jolla, and she could quietly read her romance novel and her downtime without sun creep coming over and seeing it as like an excuse to Lear at her because she's reading a romance novel. Ergo she must just want some total gross fucking 70-year-old yuppie to come and try and grind up on her hip because she's reading a romance novel.

Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. It's so weird.

Stacy:

Oh yeah. Just like the comments people would like, like, you know, like as a, a teenager, like reading a romance novel, like waiting for my bus stop, like just the comments. People would like random fucking strangers, like adult fucking men would say to like a 15-year-old girl quietly waiting for her bus to come pick her up. Like the shit they would say is vile. Mm-hmm. Yep. And it's, I think it, it ties into that whole, like, there's this wave like very frightening wave of like entitled assholes, you know, the, the same ones who did the whole, your body My choice bullshit. Yeah. Online until he got his ass docked, which is still the funniest fucking thing I've ever seen. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's that same shit where women can't own their sexuality because their sexuality only belongs to men. You know, it's, it's the same thing. It, it's the same reason why I'm so critical of the male gaze and shit that isn't male specifically aims. Like, I'm not interested in, like, for example, and this is the dumbest example, but I'm still gonna give it because it just fucking sets my tits off, is like I'm playing my, my, my, my fucking animal restaurant game right on my phone. And it's literally a game where it is a restaurant run by animals. That's it. It's cute, it's adorable. You can do little, little quests to help gmy the cat chef run the best restaurant that he can do. Right. And you have little, little goals that you have to meet. And a lot of it is, Hey, you know, here, here's your coins that you earned for the day, but if you watch this ad, we'll double it. Right? So then you're subjected to, God only knows whatever bullshit comes up in their string. And one of them is, and it, it's called like AKA Slow Life or something like that. And I have seen. Footage of this like demon wife, demon ish demon s demon adjacent, zipping up the zipper over her butt crack so many fucking times. And it's like, that is enough to tell me this game is not for me.

Amy:

Yeah.

Stacy:

Because that is so goddamn male gaze that it could be the fucking picture of it in the dictionary. And I'm not saying that you can't have sexy stuff, like honestly, she's very sexy looking. I would love a pair of those pants just to wear around the house, but I don't, I don't wanna play a game where the comfort of the character isn't taken into consideration. Because if we put her in this uncomfortable act outfit, it'll make the boys who play this get get a boner. Yeah. And that whole thing ties into the whole thing where, but, but now it's not just a game, it's assholes trying to do it to women in real life.

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

And a dog will not fucking hunt Monsignor. Yes, yes.

Amy:

Yeah. Actually, you bring up a good point, Stacy. There's that's something that I, I try to pay attention to. I used to not be quite so choosy like with my anime that I would watch, though there are some anime that I'm like. I've tried to watch it now, and I'm like, oh hell no. Why? I fucking watched that the first time. Right. Who was I when I watched this? Seriously? Who was I? But anyways, but nowadays it's actually nice because you get the the cover of, of what the anime focuses. And I look at the ratio. And the ratio is if there's not a good balance between male and female characters mm-hmm. It's most likely not for me.

Stacy:

Hugely. Hugely. Well, and even like,'cause I don't wanna be take to be taken as I'm saying. Like, when could only wear burlap acts, you know what I mean? Like, my favorite at all time is the Slay. Right. No, I get that. And Naga, the, the Lena's sidekick before she meets gallery is a walking cheesecake model. Yes. And it's fucking hilarious. It's great. Like you can hear Naga coming because her ts go boying, bling boying as she's walking. Like, it's great. It's a really funny, and Naga has a personality though, outside of her mad Max Bikini that she's wearing. Yes. And so I don't have issue with sexuality or even, Hey, I'm dressing sexual because I like the attention from whatever gender it is that I'm attempting to attract in this encounter. I just don't like it when it's. The idea is, is that the only gaze that matters is the male gaze and fuck what anybody else thinks or what anybody else is into.

Amy:

Correct. But the thing with that, I can get with that.

Yeah.

Amy:

The thing of for me though, is the ones that they, when I'm looking at the ratio, I'm also looking at who the main character is. Right. The main is a male and I see him surrounded by women. I'm like, ah, obviously this is intended for the male gazes. It is not. Right. Yeah, exactly. Whereas slayers, because it's focusing on Lena as the main character. Right. And you've got Amelia, it's being put as more for both gazes. It's

Stacy:

Boths. Mm-hmm. And the romance when it happens is sporadic, but very sweet. It's another one of those where you have to, you have to look for the undercurrent to find the romance and slay. Yes. And so when you find it, you're just like, oh, that's, that's, that's good stuff. Mm-hmm. That's good stuff.

Amy:

Yes. And there's nothing wrong with it. I'm like, if you like that, if that's your thing, go for it. But sure. I'm not saying don't watch it.

Stacy:

Right. I'm not saying burn love heated to the ground, but at the same time, like address it for what it is. Yes. We made this because we want teenage boys to watch it. Okay. No shame in that man. That is a viable fucking demographic. But don't make something and then claim it's for the female gaze when it very clearly is not correct. Or make it something like that. When fucking My Little Pony friendship is magic came out and it was this adorable thing and all these little kids were having a good time watching it. And then a bunch of gross male perverts. Mm. Decided to fucking ruin it for little kids anyway. But it, it's just the, it has to be male gaze or it's crap is what mm-hmm. Just mm-hmm. Just turns me and just a frothing. Goddamn. Like, I wanna bite my own shoulder because I'm so fucking angry. Yeah. And it's the closest thing at hand that I can get my teeth into.

Amy:

To that, to that. I do have a fun fact. The first actual novel composed was by a woman. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Of course, it was The Tale of Genji.

Mm-hmm.

Stacy:

Of course it was, it was a long fucking book too. It's Tale Genji is really fucking long.

I, if, if I were stuck in, in the Japanese court as a, as an overly educated woman with pretty much nothing to do, I too might write a long ass book. Yeah. Blame,

Stacy:

don't blame

her.

Stacy:

I think I would just become an epic poisoner and just start killing people for fun, quite frankly. Find other ways to

Stacy,

Stacy:

Hey, look, if you're gonna fucking fence me in, then you get to deal with the end result, It ain't the hurricane's fault. Then it trashes the city. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And actually on a similar note, so like the opposite of smut and, you know, dirty or spicy or steamy romance. Mm-hmm. Would be clean romance.

Stacy:

It's not, I hate that term. Closed door. Yeah. It's a weird term bucket. It's a weird term.

Amy:

It's a very weird term, but it unfortunately it is being applied and even in the library world. Mm-hmm. It's just how it is. I have, I refuse to use it. We have had some, some patrons that have asked for clean teen romance. It's like, most of it is

Stacy:

right. Lemme show you our vast collection, much on the page. And you shouldn show see much on the page, right? Our vast collection of Janet Oakley, Puritan Romance. Here's your Amish romance. Go to town.

Yeah. Yeah. That I I am more of a closed door phrase fan personally. Yeah. I refuse

Stacy:

to use clean because it implies there's so wrong, wrong with onscreen.

Yeah.

Stacy:

Also, if you're gonna write closed door romance, fucking warn me if I get invested and then the, they're just about to bang and the door closes, bitch, I will. DNF So goddamn fast.

Amy (2):

I think bio

Stacy:

has said the same thing. Oh, like, have you warned me? I'm fine with it. I can go in like, I, not every story has to have graphics sex in it. It should, but I understand that not every story needs it.

I, that would be kind of a hilarious content warning. I mean, content warning

Stacy:

closed door. I think there should be, let's be honest, little women would've been way more fun with on page sex anyway. Don't mind closed dorm. Like, again, like what I was saying before, that just makes you more fearful for the little snippets of it that you get. I still maintain, one of the most romantic things I ever read was in fucking Weathering Heights. When Keith Cliff talks about how he bribed the sex stint to open the side of Kathy's casket. So that when he was buried next to her, they would decay into each other. I still maintain that. And, and I mean, and that is very much like, that's, that's it. That's as graphic on page as you get. I don't even think they kiss in weathering heights. No. So it doesn't ha You don't have to have fun. They just angrily long at each other. The mo biggest, the two biggest assholes in Yorkshire found each other, or was it Cornwall? I can't remember if it's Yorkshire. I think it's Yorkshire, isn't it? Yeah, it's Yorkshire,

because Yeah. Yeah. You gotta go up into the Moorlands and Yeah.

Stacy:

The two most a like, like just the two biggest douche bags, it should have gotten married and just screamed at each other in their own house for the rest of their life. Instead decided to blow up the spot of every person that they even peripherally Encount had an encounter with. But, but part of the appeal of that is Heath, cliff and Kathy are terrible. They have no redeeming qualities. I honestly, I think Kathy's worse than Heath Cliff.

Oh, for sure. For sure. But no, she is the worst.

Stacy:

Yes. But Heath, most of withering

heights, I kept on thinking, Heath Cliff, you dumb ass. Yeah, totally. But

Stacy:

his longing for her after she dies is genuine. Mm-hmm. And you can fucking feel it when you're reading it. And that I think is, is honestly what makes the book so compelling. And, and like you, you, even though he's a fucking monster and he admits he's a monster and he made the deliberate choice to become a monster, you still ache for him as he aches for her like a hundred percent. That's why I really recommend, if you ever wanna read what's essentially weathering heights with a happy, happy ending and without Kathy being a bitch, there's a book called Upon a Moon Narc More by Rebecca Branwin that was written in the eighties. I think it's way out of print now, but you can get a copy of the book for like pennies and it's essentially Weathering Heights, fanfic, but with a Happily Ever after. And it, Maggie, the main character is nowhere near the bitch that Catherine is, but it's but Draco, the main male character is fucking Heath Cliff to the nth degree, except he's actually their cousin.'cause you know, there's that whole, that's something we could talk about too, actually, is that streak of incest that shows up in a lot of, especially eighties romance where his cousins marrying each other. Oh yeah. It was too fair. It was, it was legal at the time. Like they're not doing anything that wouldn't have been done in the timeframe. But I think because so many of us grew up with it, that we've kind of normalized it in our heads. But then you read Romance novel and you're like, well, yeah, of course. Like he's the hot cousin and she's the hot cousin, and like, yeah, like Family Dynasty, blah, blah, blah.

I, I appreciate how we started with, with a question on clean romance and now we are Yeah,

Stacy:

yeah. Talking about cousin fucking, although, you know because I think, can't you technically marry your first cousin in the us? Like I think some

states that required to have

Stacy:

like genetic counseling or something like that? No, but as long as you're not planning to reproduce, I think it's legal or if you're going to reproduce, it's like with careful genetic consideration taking any hand. Oh

my gosh. But

Stacy:

why

would

Amy:

you, yeah, I know, but I don't care how hot your cousin is. It's your cousin.

Stacy:

Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm. I know we still have to, we we need to talk about tropes, which is a, a spoiler alert, everyone. That's our, that's our next episode. Yay. We're gonna trope it up. Did you, did, did you, like I if you were like, man, we, I wish you could have talked more about breeding kinks or size difference. Guess what? I'm down for it. What? Bitches. Yeah. Keep listening. We keep listening. So I, I'm gonna say more

Stacy:

disturbing, upsetting things in your ears in the next episode too.

We, yeah, we do batch recordings of this stuff. So there's your spoiler alert. In the meantime, for those who are listening to this tell us, tell us your thoughts. What, what is smut to you? What, Yeah. Are your weird content warnings that you wouldn't think are content warnings and yeah, they really should be. Yes. You can go to our website tales from the orden.com. Mm-hmm. Really, really creative there. You can find me on Monster Romance reviews on Instagram and Substack. And yeah let us know what you think and oh, please, please. Like, like Review star, let other people know that we exist. Yeah.

Amy:

Oh, we will. If you I will. I I just wanted to plug, there's a couple of episodes definitely related to this that it's like you might wanna, you know, have a listen the great book, panic and Honor Thy Bookish Limits. Yes, please have a look at those. Have a listen to those episodes because we went into a lot of information there and it's definitely relative to now, right. And more so to what's going on in the world, right? Yeah.

Stacy:

The political scope that we're currently battling at the moment, roughly one year later. I'm just gonna say it, I'm just gonna say it out loud. You can have my fucking on page sm when you pry it from my cold dead hands, motherfucker. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amy:

I'm right there with you, Stacy.

Well, cheers dear readers. Embrace the DNF.

Stacy:

There

you go. Let go of

Stacy:

fomo.

Let go of fomo. And

Stacy:

life is too short to read Shi.