Tales from the Orc Den

Honor Thy Bookish Limits

• Monster Romance Reviews • Season 4 • Episode 2

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Not every book is for everyone. The trick to being a happy reader is knowing and accepting your limits. In this episode Amy, EJ , and Stacy talk about navigating content warnings and personal limits as readers and content consumers in general.

Part of this was instigated by two well-written articles from Bookriot.com and Tor.com, which are linked below. It is a generally common issue though for a lot of the Internet community to not look after their needs and behave responsibly. That’s not okay. So let’s talk about it!

Stuff We Mention

Music is called "Undead Bride" by Pagefire https://soundcloud.com/nerdymetalhead202/undead-bride 

EJ:

Welcome back, dear listeners. This is another interesting episode of Tales from the Orc Den because we are we just got on a toot of listen, we got to talk about the book world and this is this is yet another one talking about the book world. So previous episode, we were talking about book censorship. If you seem to be. Like, man, I'm hearing meows and bumps in the background of EJ's mic. That's because my cat won't leave me alone. And I've got a sweet, very selfish, smooth brained orange boy who is a baby. He would like you to know he is baby. But anyway, once again Amy, Stacy, we talk about some pretty racy stuff on this podcast, usually World of Monster Romance I would say in the, in the commercial literature world, we also know dark stuff. It's full of dark stuff. Parts of it. I'd say a decent chunk, as much as I love fluff and as huge as fluff sells, there is definitely a dark romance streak in the monster romance world, and it's related paranormal sci fi fantasy romance world. Really the trick, I think, of being a happy, satisfied reader in this world is knowing yourself as a reader. And that's really the core of what we want to talk about today. Because this seems to be a tricky concept for folks to know and respect themselves. I'm going to turn this over to Amy because Amy was the one because she brings us such awesome articles

Stacy:

so this is also really quick just to pop in really quick. This is also tangentially related. To the book censorship, uh, episode that we did because it's the same idea of learning to stay in your own fucking lane.

EJ:

Absolutely. And there is nothing wrong with self censoring No, not at all. In fact, actually, I would say we were going to argue here. You should. Yes. So consider this a tough love episode, everyone. Very much, very

Stacy:

much tough love. For sure.

Amy:

Okay the two articles that I shared with EJ and Stacey the first one, at least I think it was the first one came from Tor. com, and it's an article by Molly Templeton called On Dead Dogs and Other Reading Deal Breakers. Now, when I read this, I was like, yep, I totally get that because this is applicable towards me when it comes to visual media, particularly films. I cannot watch a film where a helpless animal, usually a cat or a dog, dies on screen or even is implied as off screen. It's very upsetting for me.

Stacy:

Same. I'm the same way with when kids die on screen, too, or

EJ:

a kid in a movie. It doesn't

Stacy:

seem to happen as often, thank goodness, Stacey,

Amy:

with kids. It doesn't seem to happen as often, but when it does, oh my god, it hits you right in the feels. And it's just like, why? Because you think they're immortal. You think the kids are, they're not immortal,

Stacy:

they're impenetrable. They should be protected. Yes. This is a vulnerable population, and the fact that We're witnessing something happen to them in a fictional setting is, even though the character is fictitious, it's still upsetting because you know that's a member of a, a vulnerable population, like I said. Correct.

Amy:

And basically what Molly goes into in this article is her limits when it comes to her reading material. She's a

Stacy:

wimp. And it had to

Amy:

do with the dog. And I know Stacey, it's,

Stacy:

it's just and I think I want to say too, I think she's a self described wimp. Like we're not calling her out. Correct. Correct.

Amy:

Yes. Sorry. This is what she says in the article herself that she's a wimp. And she says she has established this in previous articles, she has written for tor. com. But, of course, sometimes people like to read outside their comfort zone, as EJ pointed out. Fluff is great. We all love fluff, but sometimes we want to get into something a little different, perhaps a little bit darker, a little

Stacy:

bit

Amy:

heavier, and that's okay. It's nice to test the

Stacy:

waters. anD sometimes you can read it and you can be like, yeah, I tried it, it's not for me. But other times you might be like, okay, I'm more into this than I thought I would be. Exactly. You've

Amy:

actually expanded your bookish boundaries because you found something that you like that you hadn't been considering

EJ:

before. I, Orcs Warren, the series that brought us all together originally, great example of a dark romance that I think is great. And I would recommend it to anyone, but I also recognize that other people might not have such a good time with it, and

Stacy:

that's fine. Exactly.

Amy:

We, but anyways, going into the bookish boundaries is basically what Molly has gone into in her article. And she does recognize that It can change over time. What maybe have been a deal breaker in a younger age might not be a deal breaker in an older age and vice versa

Stacy:

as you get older, like

Amy:

this can apply to pretty much any content that you consume. I used to watch CSI, Miami criminal mind all the time. I can't anymore, because it feels

Stacy:

far too

Amy:

real for

Stacy:

me. Yes, I think a lot of people are experiencing that in this in the current climes. It's

Amy:

That's on me, though. I accept that other people can watch it. They are welcome to enjoy it. I won't diss anyone's enjoyment for what they consume. Consume. Just don't make me

Stacy:

watch it, because I don't want to.

Amy:

Let's see. There was something that she said in here that made a lot of sense. Sometimes you don't actually recognize that you have deal breakers until you encounter it in a book that's true or a form of media and you're like, Whoa, I, that just came out of nowhere. Like surprise penis

Stacy:

or something.

Amy:

Where was I? Okay in the article Molly's talking about deal breakers, and originally, she liked to think that there were no deal breakers for her, that there was no thing, no happening, or plot point, or character type, or instance that might not be somehow used wisely, interestingly, Powerfully. And she said, I read books in which terrible, horrible things happen. I watched aggravating movies that filled my head with images I would rather never have seen. And then I read more, and watched more, and read more criticism and commentary, and somewhere down the line, I changed my tune. People can write whatever they like, but some of it, I just can't spend time with anymore. And that's understandable, because Absolutely. She recognized that it's not content for her. And I'm actually going to let that lead me into the second article. This is an essay from Book Riot from P. N. Hinton. I don't know if they're related to S. J., goodness knows, who knows. But anyways, The Importance of Knowing and Sticking to Your Own Bookish Limits. And let's see. Starts off with I enjoy almost everything bookish. It comes as no surprise that a good bit of my For You page on TikTok is book related. I get quite an eclectic mix of genres there. Romance, fantasy, cozies of all kinds, and horror. That last one is what inspired me to write this piece. There was a book that came across, um, Hinton's TikTok, and they call it The Book, and it is called Playground by I'm going to guess Aaron. It could be Aaron. It could be Aaron. Beauregard. And it's become a really popular horror book.

Stacy:

Is that the splatterpunk that everybody was shitting their pants over? Yes.

Amy:

But Hinton fortunately did link the TikTok that sums up what happened with some people who picked this up without doing proper research. Basically, they either ignored the content warnings, which... Beauregard included with the book, because Splatterpunk is a very niche genre,

Stacy:

It's so

Amy:

niche in horror, I can't even name the number of books that can be, that, that is, that are applicable towards that sub genre.

Stacy:

There's a fair few, because I've read a lot of, I wouldn't say a lot of them, but I've read a little cross section of some of them and again it's just, They're fine but if you're somebody who doesn't like extreme horror, then this isn't for you. Exactly,

Amy:

but either these people that are pretty much dragging Beauregard through the co over the coals, um, because of oh

Stacy:

my god, I can't,

Amy:

it's just so disgusting, I couldn't finish it, blah, blah, blah, and it's like The content warnings were there. You chose to ignore them, or

Stacy:

you chose to think that they did not apply to you. Yes, exactly. And I think,

Amy:

I think that's where readers do a disservice to authors who are actually starting to include content warnings and trigger warnings for their books. Yeah. There are, there have to be limits. You have, I wouldn't say there have to be, but there are limits that some people can take in books. Okay, I can't handle this. I read The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang when it first came out in 2018. Great book. It was one of my first examples. At least overt examples of grimdark fantasy that I ever read. And the inspiration that Kwong drew from was actually from Asia's own history during World War I in the Sino Japanese War. And the horrors

Stacy:

of Sino. Sino Japanese. Sino Japanese, excuse me. I'm just saying it because I'm sure I wrote a paper or three on it. It's a

Amy:

part of world history that is totally talked over. Trust me, Stacey. I am very peeved that we didn't get to see a lot more of. World War I and the effect it had on other parts of the world aside from the West.

Stacy:

Right, 100%.

Amy:

Anyways, Pong did go into a lot of the horrors of war, including biochemical

Stacy:

warfare. Yeah, because that was the first war where we first really started dabbling with chemical warfare.

Amy:

But it also dealt with rape, and the Rape of Nanking was one of her biggest inspirations as well. And I thought it was a great book. I gave it four out of five stars. However, I could not continue the trilogy because it was just it was so much. And so I'm like, while I can admit that this is a great book, I will admit that the trilogy is most likely not for me.

Stacy:

Right.

Amy:

And granted, I don't believe Kuang included any trigger warnings in her books. I think they're definitely becoming more prevalent nowadays.

Stacy:

Remember, this would be... fair, by, by, in 2018, I don't think, because that's when you said it came out, right? It was 2018? Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. I don't think, I don't think trigger warnings had become as popular. I think people were just starting to do it.

EJ:

And definitely not in Tribe Publishing. I think Tribe Publishing is only now maybe getting the hint. And they took it from Indie Publishing, where it's only now really becoming a industry standard. Yeah. And I will acknowledge a couple episodes back, when we started talking about anthologies Verbose. Trigger warnings and authors doing their due diligence. Awesome. Love it. Mwah! You be as verbose as you want to, you gorgeous human beings. In the meantime, readers, for heaven's sakes, Ctrl F, search, whatever. Kindle's got so many cute little things for you to do. Use it. Don't be afraid to be like, you know what? I don't feel like dealing with childhood abuse or something. On page. That's

Stacy:

Maybe I'm just not in the right mind space for this. And you should honor that. And I would also like to say, I also talked about this in the anthology episode, if you're a writer, don't fucking say, look at my writer's page or go to my page for a complete list of triggers. I'm not going to, and likely what's going to happen is I'm not going to read your fucking book.

Amy:

At least include the main trigger warnings

Stacy:

in the book itself. So you could say Hey, the big trigger warnings include X, Y, and Z. If you want a more comprehensive list, check out my webpage. Yes. I know Finley. There's a streak of authors that I've noticed who are like for content warning, check my webpage. Okay. Fuck you. I'm not going to read your book. Why, just

EJ:

please are you afraid of being uncool? Like a And I think that's something that I cannot ever encourage people enough to be, don't be afraid to be uncool. Embrace being uncool. We're

Stacy:

adults. I was never cool. And I never planned to be cool. Yeah. Seriously seen here.

EJ:

It has never served me going

Amy:

into the rest of the article, though. Like I said, this, there was. A backlash against the author themself, fans of Splatterpunk, and the horror community as a whole. And it's you're not honoring the author in what they warned you about. And you're pretty much going me. And uh, there, there seems

Stacy:

to be this You don't go to somebody else's house and demand they make you a salami sandwich. Precisely.

Amy:

Do not

EJ:

insult Right, and they're a vegetarian household.

Stacy:

Yes, do not insult the vegetarian

Amy:

household, or do not insult someone who is opening their home to you, providing nice treats, and you're like, Oh, I can't eat that, or, Oh, do you have anything else?

Stacy:

Do you have anything better? Or, and even another example is, say you have a peanut allergy, and you want to go to somebody's house, and that person says, Okay, but my house is made out of peanuts. And you ignore it and you go anyway, and then you bitch because you have a peanut allergy. Congratulations, you're a dick.

EJ:

I guess the point is it's just, don't go in being like, this is not what I like, and I have put myself in a situation where I'm not going to like something. It's very confusing for yourself and everyone else, and it just comes off as rude.

Stacy:

Don't assume that just because something isn't to your taste, that doesn't make it a

EJ:

bad book. Oh, absolutely. Even I cannot emphasize enough with my own reviewing work, my reviews are my reviews. They are the opinions, which are full of bias and skewing, of what I see and how I read it, and, if you are not me, which last time I checked, no one else was. Right.

Stacy:

You're probably not.

EJ:

You might disagree with me, and I might be like, that's normal. Yeah, that's okay. That is totally okay.

Amy:

Oh my goodness, no reader ever reads the same book.

EJ:

No. No. No. No.

Stacy:

An interesting way to track that, if you have something like Kindle, is to look at what people highlight. Because sometimes you'll see something and you're like, yes, I'm going to highlight this too. And then other times you're like, 64 people highlighted that? Why? What the hell?

EJ:

You gotta wonder. There are I'm telling you, this is why I want there to be a bookish app, because I feel like Kindle stopped too soon. I want an opt in feature where I can participate in book discussions of Oh, you highlighted that? Why? Tell me more. No, you

Amy:

can leave notes. Oh, you mean like digital marginalia? Yeah.

Stacy:

I love that. And you can leave notes. On highlights in Kindle. I, yeah. But then I've done that with there's a, I know you can share that on good reads. There's a dark, sexy Russian still could engage in a discussion though,

Amy:

because

Stacy:

it's not like That's fair. Yeah.

Amy:

It's anonymous person can reach out to you or vice versa. Yeah.

Stacy:

It's a closed, it's a closed loop, like yeah. But I do that if, if say somebody, I'm just saying, some more, if someone, faves something, did it again, faves something or likes a quote or something like that, it is cool to get to tap on it. And if somebody is adding to this, I noticed blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's even helpful with, there's a book series I like where the main male characters are Russian and they, the author did a lot of research into Russian because it's not just run through Google Translator Russian. And so I will go and I will look it up and then a lot of times I will footnote it with the translation so I don't have to constantly go back to to, to try and translate it online.

EJ:

I tell you, if I had Nepo baby money, I would be building such a bookish app like today with the digital marginalia. My focus group would be like advanced reader copies. That way I'm not, dealing with, I'm not dipping into Amazon's pool. It would be like all the particular the really engaged reader nerds. Because they're the ones who are going to be talking about that stuff the most. Oh my God. It would be cool.

Amy:

I just thought of something. Can you imagine if.. If they could get physical copies of the arcs and then, of course, mark them up like crazy. It's like, why did you do this? Or why, what happened here? Blah, blah, blah. Just, and then send it back to

Stacy:

the author. Oh my god. That's the thing though, like what EJ's talking about. If you had an app like that, you could.

EJ:

Yeah, pretty much and what I'm describing is like doing that by, in a digital form with the ebook. Yeah. Yeah.

Stacy:

But on the ebook instead of on the physical. Yeah. I did arc read for one of ML Marion, is that the writer's name should have tamed claimed named really good series on cozy kidnapping. Doesn't sound like it should go on. Really? Does go on. Yeah. Super hot. Anyway she actually, I ARC read for, I think it was claimed, but don't quote me on that. And she actually had a really cool thing set up where you didn't just get a digital book. She released the chapters on, I don't remember what the website was. But you could read the chapters, and then there were questions at the end of each chapter. And so instead of you getting the whole arc, I like that. You would get the chapter, you would, there was a space for, what did you think about this chapter? You're like, what are your thoughts on this? Did you notice anything wrong? But then there would be specific questions like, what did you think when blah blah blah said blah blah blah? Did that make sense to you? Do you feel like it was overstated? Do you feel like it was understated? And so it was, it made it really easy to help give really nuanced feedback. That is rather than really and rather than I like it. I would have loved to have

Amy:

seen the compiled notes from

EJ:

that Stacy would be all right. So I admit, I'm a mud. I'm enough of an engaged art creator to be like, I would want to know what my fellow art creators are also thinking, because it would be like this really cool, like exclusive asynchronous book club. Essentially, yeah. And I suppose like part of that too is I started thinking of this, I admit, because all three of us are, I think, rather spoiled Finley Fenn's Arc Reader community is terribly engaged, especially on Discord. I got to admit, I started thinking about this like when we were Arc Reading for one of her Orc Swarm books, and I just remember people like going back and forth. Between the book and referencing stuff and being like, Oh, all that. And I was like, wouldn't it be nice if I didn't have to constantly go back and forth between the book and discord for me to be like, Oh, crap. Yeah, that part. Oh, man, go back in for once that happens. The tech professional in me was like, this is the friction point for the user. So and that just starts a whole bunch of requirements and a project product division. And then I realized I have no money. Yeah, so at least I don't have tech entrepreneur money. To be fair, I've got, can can support a bunch of Patreon's money, but not tech entrepreneur money. I did

Amy:

want to clarify what marginalia is in case people are not familiar with what the term is. Basically, marginalia comes from the idea of composing notes. In the margins, basically the gutter area of a book, and basically it could be in reaction to something, or it could be, highlighting a quote and saying, Oh God, I love this quote, or something to that

Stacy:

extent. Yeah. But all that is

Amy:

to say, with the article, The Importance of Knowing Your Bookish Limits, I'm going to sum it up in one sentence, which Hinton was kind enough to say. Not every book is meant for you.

Stacy:

100 percent agree. I think

Amy:

there are quite a few readers out there that cannot accept this, though. Yeah. For whatever reason,

Stacy:

and I'm just like, why? Or they take it as a challenge.

Amy:

There's no way that you can read all of the literature in the world in a lifetime. It's

Stacy:

just not possible. And why would you want to? Because there's so much of it are books like shit written by George Orwell.

EJ:

And nobody needs that. No.

Amy:

But the thing is that there is one thing I can highly recommend that can be done no matter what type of content you're, you are consuming. Whether it's a book, a fan fiction that you're reading. A TV series that you've started, you can always close the book, hit the back button, and move

Stacy:

on with your life. Right. I 100 percent agree. So

Amy:

simple, and yet such a hard concept for

Stacy:

quite a few people.

EJ:

A lot of my follow up questions are going to be us showing some practicing along with our preaching. And so I'm going to go around the virtual table and be like, so what are your limits? What are your immediate do not pick up? Want me to go first? Yeah, go for it, Amy.

Amy:

All right. Non con, as in non consensual, is one of the biggest trigger warnings that I look for in, especially my romance, especially my

Stacy:

monster romance. Oh. Yeah, dark romance in particular can really tread down that path. I

Amy:

cannot, I can't, dubious con, as in dubious consent, that has a bit more wiggle room, but non con, that is something that I am against because there needs to be consent between the two adults. In whatever it is that they are doing, whether that's canoodling on the couch or railing up against the wall.

EJ:

Right.

Amy:

Whatever. I need consent. If there's no consent, I'm not a happy camper. However, I'm not going to diss anyone who enjoys non con because that's

Stacy:

me. I like non and dubcon if it's done right. See? There you go.

EJ:

There we go. Yeah. I'm actually right there with you, Amy.

Amy:

The other one that I think is eh, it's mostly a pass, mostly because I don't really care for the real life depiction, and that would be... Any form of organized crime romance, whether it's Mafia, Yakuza, yadda, whatever, I'm

Stacy:

like, Pass. Pass. For the most part, I agree. But there are a couple of exceptions to that rule. That's understandable, Stacey. You found

Amy:

the ones that you actually appreciate. Whereas you don't necessarily need to go into that.

Stacy:

Sub genre. Exactly. Yeah, my absolute, I'm gonna miss this, is reverse harem. I don't like I don't like multiple partners, and my, and again, I'm not, I love that Reverse Harem is fucking out there, I love that Polycule books are out there, I love that somewhere out there, I know there's a book. Where it's ten mountain men and one chick, and I fucking love that it exists, even though it makes me tired thinking about reading it. My, my approach to that for why that's not for me is because I am a very jealous, possessive person, and I'm very open about that. What is mine, what is mine is not yours, you don't touch what's mine, and also if I can take it from you, it's no longer yours, it's mine, and you can't touch it. And there's a reason why I think I sorted into Slytherin. bUt, Reverse Harem is one of those, it's not so much a trigger for me I'm not gonna be like, Oh dear God, it's Reverse Harem. But I did that one time, but that's because there was no fuckin warning by the stupid fuckin author. I won't name names, but she is on the never read list, because too many of her books have uh, Punched me in the ovaries and not in a fun way. I Really don't think I have many triggers. It's more like likes and dislikes. Actually, a trigger for me would be talking down. Especially to the heroine. Oh, yeah. Any kind of that's actually something I like going back and revisiting some of the bodice rippers that I read as a kid. But there are some I can't revisit because the misogyny just gallops. And in a couple of them... I have since found out that they were actually written by men

EJ:

ghostwriting as women. There we

Stacy:

go. Interesting. And that gives it just a collective, ugly, taste in the back of my mouth, basically. But any kind of talking down there was a fucking rule for fucking years in the 80s where the Man and the woman, because I was reading historical romance at that point, have to have a disagreement, and she says, If I were a man, I'd punch you. And he says, If you were a man, I wouldn't be doing this to you. It was like every fucking book was required by law to have some variation of that. Stupid, non funny, smug phrase in it, and the fact that we don't anymore is proof that we have advanced as a society.

EJ:

I appreciate that as you were describing that, both Amy and I's eyebrows just shot up at the same time. And we both did a sideways glance of that's disgusting. Bullshit,

Stacy:

yeah it's so gross. It's gross on a level that defies description. And the other thing I can't handle is, so like I said, it's not, again, it's not that I can't handle it, it's that I won't read it. Is so like we were talking about for the most part, I Bratva. whatever series either. Because again, like Amy said, the reality of it is something extremely ugly. And, but for me, the deal breaker, like the ones that I won't even put a toe in, is anything that has to do with cartels. Because cartels scare the shit out of me, and cartels in real life are terrifying. Yeah. And so the fact that some people are now turning to that as like the next, Oh we've done Mafia, we've done Bratva, and it's just one of those things where it's No, I'm not even for pretend. I'm not going to do

EJ:

that. Oh, damn. That's actually a really interesting point. I do admit with Mafia and, the various, it depends. It's not an immediate won't pick up. It's a let, let me explore this a little bit. Where are we going with this? esPecially I feel very privileged to be in the monster romance space because it can get heavy into fantasy where it is so pulled apart from the reality of the situation. I am. I'm cool with it. Cause I'm like, we're in fantasy. I can suspend a shit ton of belief. None of this is even resembling anything but the barest

Stacy:

of like, how the mafia works. The work is tragically very unlikely to rail me up against a tree. And I would also like to just take a moment and preemptively. Cover my ass by saying I'm not saying anything negative about the cartels. I'm just saying that they scare me

EJ:

Oh, yeah, and I think that's the thing like they are to me the true mafia actual gang culture. Yes cartel These are very powerful dangerous Organizations.

Stacy:

Yes, they're not romantic yeah, and that's none of them. Yeah, which is why, by and large, I can't hang with them.

EJ:

Also, a motorcycle club stories are weird to me. Yeah. Because I grew up amongst white trash, I actually knew people in motorcycle clubs. And I was like, ah, same.

Stacy:

I have family members who were in motorcycle clubs. My goodness. It's so hard to tell right

EJ:

there they're, they're a lot less rugged and handsome and a lot more of your belly, y'all.

Stacy:

It's a lot more lost your teeth because of meth versus the normal alcohol.

EJ:

Yeah, there's a lot of meth in

Stacy:

motorcycle law. Yes, there is. There is a lot of math. And yeah, so all of that is on the same board. But like the only Motorcycle Club series that I can read is Casey Wells. And she's the exception, not the rule.

EJ:

And that is actually a good thing to note just because something is a, a do not pick up, doesn't mean it is a never pick up. Yeah, for sure. We don't live in a world of absolutes.

Stacy:

But it's the same thing with the Mafia stories. The only, I think, true Mafia story. I have, that I enjoy, is also by Kasey Wells, because she's one of those I don't know what it is about that woman, I think she's a witch, but she is able to take a story concept that should be like an automatic, no, I'm not reading that. And suddenly you're like, I have read every drop and I must consume more. So like a big, like personal trigger for me is cheating. Which I think a lot of people would have a similar trigger. Yeah. She wrote a hard one for me to read, but she wrote a book where the husband cheated on the wife. And the context behind it and the whole story is so fucking heartbreaking. And he spends, it is grovel porn of the finest caliber. She writes really good grovel porn. She's the one who wrote the The Alpha Tyrant's Rejected Mate. Have you ever read that one? With Una and Killian. Oh, read it. Again, if you like grovel porn, we're basically the mate she realizes the Alpha's her mate and he humiliates her in front of the entire pack. Oh. And then realizes after she's essentially had the Pack Witch rip out their connection. He realizes that she is his maid. And she's just fuck you, fuck your mother, I don't want anything to do with you. And watching him chase after her is pretty fucking awesome. But she wrote, in fact, it's one of the Motorcycle Club books, it's called Wall. And it's the context of why he did it, and again nobody's excusing it. But it happened, and it's a realistic, in a fictitious world where... Bikers are huge, hot, and not at all problematic. And, but she wrote just this beautiful story about a couple who loved each other who got lost, basically, and turned from each other and did horrible things. And then it's them four years later trying to re navigate this relationship, basically.

EJ:

If you could write me a story like that I would enjoy, I would call that woman a witch, too.

Stacy:

Seriously, read Wall. I really recommend it. Like, But only in romance novels is a motorcycle club sexy. This is absolutely true. Again, real life, lot of meth. I just like that episode of Bob's Burgers with the one eyed snakes. Yes! What'd you get that patch for? For not being a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. Oh, what's that one for? For tickling a cop! It's all of that. I think that's closer to the reality of what a motorcycle club is.

EJ:

I don't know if I'd call them triggers. They feel a little silly to be triggers, but there are some little things too that make me be like, you know what? I'm not in the right head space for this right now. Yeah.

Stacy:

Even. And even when it's a writer you like,

EJ:

right? Yes. Or a story that you picked up and you're like, this is ticking off all my boxes. Yeah. Like I, I very recently, I dnf. For now, a book in the monster romance genre, I do admit, it ticked off so many boxes, but in the middle of it, the heroine is, Breaks the Fever of a Baby by Tyene a onion slice to the baby's foot and assures the mother that this is going to break the fever because it'll draw out the fever through the foot. She's I don't know how this works, but it works.

Stacy:

It doesn't work. Yeah. And we had a lot of kids in TRL who, when they would have a cold, would either Want to put VIX on their feet or put an onion in their sock. Yeah. Yeah.'cause that's what their mother or their grandmother did. Exactly. I've never heard of this thing.

EJ:

Yeah. Yeah. Be thankful. Be thankful. This is I immediately DNF'cause I was like no. And I am I, this is a very like. This is popular amongst non traditional medicine groups. And I admit, I have a It's folk medicine. It's folk medicine that has no basis in anything.

Stacy:

But it's, yeah, it's folk medicine that doesn't work. That's the thing. Most folk medicine is like willow bark tea where nobody can figure out why. But willowbark tea would lower a fever and it's because it has the same properties as aspirin.

EJ:

Yeah, it's, so it's that's And there is, there's a delineation in folk medicine. I want to be, I'll be up front. There are things like I, whenever I have a sore throat, I do drink herbal licorice tea because it coats my throat and it feels good, damn it. And it tastes good. Or

Stacy:

If you don't. No, it doesn't. Licorice is terrible and you guys

EJ:

should both be ashamed of yourself. Oh, yeah. I also like Jaeger, so there.

Amy:

I don't know about that. But I do love throat coat, which does include licorice roots, so I

EJ:

can hang with. Yeah, that herbal remedy stuff, throat coat, fantastic. But the frickin onion does nothing. Nothing. Yeah, so anyway, so it's a very specific, weird trigger for me and I get, I do admit part of it was like aggravated by COVID because this was, that was a time where I saw a lot of people that I was acquainted with who went with a lot of COVID conspiracies and, went down. Like a really stupid

Stacy:

that was galloping and still is galloping

EJ:

on the internet. They went down a really stupid route. So when I come across stuff like that, it is triggering for me because I think I happen to be in an area where a lot of people died, frankly, from COVID. And part of it was this very like blinded thinking. That is in the same school of tyin onion to their foot, and I just was like nope. Immediately thinking of dead people. Nope.

Stacy:

Yeah and the thing is, now that you say that, that is something that pisses me off when I read something. That I know isn't true and that they could have proven or disproven with 30 seconds on the

EJ:

internet. It's I

Stacy:

fucking hate that I my triggers tend to be more like rage triggers. My rage quit is anytime a hero, especially a hero or heroine, especially if they're touted as being very intelligent. And they do something that's so goddamn stupid, that it's I refuse to believe that you can walk and breathe at the same time. I read a book like this recently, and I believe I summed it up as, cause of death, stupidity. Or no, I'm sorry, time of death now, cause of death, forgot how to breathe again. I was reading a book, and I had to rage quit it, and it was supposed to be this, like, super duper, educated human who's, Who knows at all, she, she knows all this stuff about alien life forms, and they capture a Kraken, basically same build as the Tiffany Roberts Kraken, so it's a humanoid torso with hands and a head, and then tentacles, and the entire time, even though it has a fucking humanoid face, she keeps going. It's almost like it's capable of intelligent thought and it's if she had all of the education that she supposedly had, she would know that there's a fucking reason why humanoids like humans, our heads are shaped the way that they are, and our jaws are shaped the way that they are, and our throat is shaped the way that it is, and it's because we're capable of speech.

EJ:

I also feel the need to point out, none of us are naming names, nor do we have any interest in

Stacy:

naming names. No, I'm not gonna name a name if the author happens to... To listen to this, she knows what she did. Anyway and then the other thing, too, is it's like, they have, this thing, he has five fingers and an opposable thumb. If it looks like a humanoid, and walks like a humanoid, and we've already made contact with humanoid aliens and they're intelligent, it's probably... I don't know, an intelligent humanoid, you fucking knuckle dragging mouth breather.

EJ:

I don't know what I'm laughing about, Harter. Stacey's rant, or the fact that Amy and I both wiggled both of our thumbs at the screen at the same time while you were doing that.

Stacy:

Good. Let's remind ourselves that... Intelligent fucking beings have fucking opposable fucking thumbs. But it was it was just like, the rest of the book could have been this incredibly moving tribute to, sentient life overcoming barriers and finding true love and I don't care because I'm not going to read it because it was so fucking stupid. That I feel like I lost two brain cells and I want them back. I'm trying not to cry here. Oh, it was I was just ugh, rage. Oh my goodness. Oh goodness. It's been

Amy:

a while since you've had rage quit a book. I can't remember the last

Stacy:

time I rage quit a book. It's been a while since I had rage quit a book before that, but, she reset the fucking counter to zero. There's a drag queen that I follow on Instagram and I think it's just Gabriel the drag queen is their handle and you should follow them because they do snark in such a beautiful, like concise way. And it's hilarious. Because he had pulled together this beautiful look where it was all in red. And he shaves his head and has a beard and then works that into the look. And so he had these huge, beautiful lashes on and this red headdress. And he was putting this beautiful red lip gloss on and the clip had started with, you know how much but by some fucking piece of shit dude bro going, you know how much the average American woman weighs? And then it was spliced in. It's Gabriel the Drag Queen, and he's putting on this beautiful red lipstick. And he takes a minute and he puts it on and he rubs his lips together and he puts the applicator back into the liquid lipstick and he goes, somewhere out there is a tree making the oxygen that you just took. Go apologize to it. And that's the end of the entire thing. And that's how I feel about that fucking book.

EJ:

Go apologize to it. Oh my goodness. Somewhere a tree sacrificed itself to make you feel bad.

Stacy:

Oxygen Thief. Oxygen Thief.

EJ:

Yes. Oh my goodness. No, that's fantastic. If I had the energy for such rage I would create a whole genre of of a book blog being so snarky, but

Stacy:

I, maybe I should start a book blog and it'll just be like the angry

EJ:

reader. I'm over here like too much full of fricking sunshine and rainbows. I've said before, I'll say it again, like I, I don't review stuff that I don't like. I

Stacy:

don't finish it.

Amy:

If I don't, if I didn't care for it I, if

Stacy:

I'm just not

Amy:

liking it, I'm not gonna

Stacy:

finish it. Exactly the same, unless

EJ:

if I'm over, like at most I can give you is three starts at this point in my reading career, especially for reviewing, I just DN, F man and I don't make a two about it. I just like quietly you know what? Especially life's too short

Stacy:

for this shit. Especially e,

EJ:

especially you guys like one Life's too short. Two, I'm over here. Like I don't think there's anything terribly useful that I can say on this Also. What am I adding to the conversation by being like, I don't like

Stacy:

this. You'll see I don't, the difference between us is that I have a, an endless well of rage. And if I don't clear the pipes every once in a while, there will be an explosion. Oh yeah. And I try to never get to that point, I

EJ:

will

Amy:

say, there was one book that I

EJ:

did finish, and I think I've probably talked to you guys about this beforehand, but it's I

Amy:

finished it because one, it was very

Stacy:

short,

EJ:

and I was just like, okay,

Amy:

and two, I'm not, oh, I checked it out from, Um, one of the library system's overdrive Libby, so I'm like, I'm not paying, I'm not paying for it, so I might as well, it's it's so short,

Stacy:

so whatever. Sometimes I'll finish a book out of sheer morbid curiosity. And I did

Amy:

finish it, and I'm like, and we, did we really need a sequel?

Stacy:

No. We didn't need the first one, let alone the second one. I'm like, I gave it two stars. And two stars

Amy:

is it was okay. I don't think I've given, I don't think I've given anything that I've ever read lower

Stacy:

than two stars. There is one book that I one starred on

EJ:

Amazon. Ooh, what was the one you one starred?

Stacy:

It was a, it wasn't romance, it was a horror, it was horror. And it was a really good, the thing that was, part of why I one starred it is because The writer has a lot of talent and he is from Louisiana and he was revisiting some, he took some events that happened in his childhood and fictionalized them, but he basically drew from. His childhood experiences. And he put so much fucking homophobia and casual racism into this fucking book, that it was like, no, motherfuckers, no. This is the 21st fucking century. I don't give a flying fuck what you and your little hooligan friends used to do in the 80s, but dog will not fucking hunt, mon seigneur. And so I he did one where... We were jumping up and down and pardon the use of F words in a dildo factory, and it was just like, that's hilarious, because gay people don't like to read horror, right? They'll never see this. Or the other one was, they were talking about, there was some dumpster company that it was like, BFH or something like that and it's cool because black families live here for her and it was just like fuck you Oh, I was so fucking angry. I was so I've read the book.

EJ:

Okay, I admit. That's a one star review. That deserves the one star. Part

Stacy:

of what made it so fucking, made me so angry was I found it because the author was interviewed on a horror podcast that I listened to. And I really liked that podcast. And so they really talked him up and they were like, oh, it's so good. It was great. It was so creepy. And I fucking, I not only one starred him, but I unsubscribed from that podcast. Dear lord. It's like the fact that you guys are a okay with this casual bullshit. What

EJ:

else are you okay with? Exactly. What other dark shit's going on? It's not the fun dark shit. I know, fun dark shit. Seriously.

Stacy:

Hey. Exactly. And it was just, I was just so fucking angry. That I went in and I not only one starred it, but I put the motherfucker on blast and basically called out, like, all of the shit like that he put in it. I put direct quotes in there and hilariously, here's the best part of that, they initially refused my review because I did a direct quote and I did, I spelled out F A G O T S. Because it was a, I literally copied and pasted it from the fucking book. And they refused it because It was too offensive. Which, I agree, it was too offensive, but at the same time, but if you're okay And yet it was published! Exactly! Exactly! And so I just went in and asterisked it so people could, figure out what the hell I was saying. But it was just like, oh, you smug little bastard. I do not fucking think so, you asshat. That is

Amy:

what I would call

EJ:

obscene. That is obscene. But I, okay. So I guess that's another trigger for me there. Racism and egregious racism and homophobia. Egregious racism and homophobia,

Stacy:

yes. If you use it as, and again, granted, I have never read a book where somebody was racist or homophobic in the book. But! I have seen it where people are like xenophobic, like an alien romance kind of thing. If you use that as like a plot device to help the character grow, I can understand that. We're like, oh, I thought aliens were X, Y, and Z, and I was wrong, and I've expanded, and I'm a better person for it. I can understand that. Here is

EJ:

the very start of my redemption arc.

Stacy:

Exactly.

Amy:

Would that be part of, would that be the application towards Orcsworn, or would that still be racism rather than xenophobia?

Stacy:

tHat's a good question. That is a good question. That's a really good question. I think technically it would be no, because Orcs are part human. Yeah, so maybe it would be racism. Racism, yeah.

EJ:

This is a very random thing. I would be very interested on Finley's take on. Yes,

Stacy:

I'm curious. Sorry, Finley, we always seem to bring you in to know that. I know. She's been dragging that poor woman in. Why did I get pulled into a conversation about racism and xenophobia? Thanks, guys. Fuck you, too. What the hell are you three talking about?

Amy:

Guys, that's because her books have merit. Because she discusses so many Things that are actually very important,

Stacy:

in addition to putting delicious smut in it. There we go. Yep. Smutty smut. Rail me, baby. Should we go on to another

EJ:

question?

Stacy:

EJ, what are some more of your triggers, EJ? Because we've only touched on one or two of yours.

EJ:

Actually, this became more of a thing after I had a kid. Children are more of a sensitive topic for me. I actually, and I. The, I have to be very particular, even with Finley's books I have to watch myself on okay, we're about to talk about childhood abuse. Is this on page? Is that off page? I just have to look after myself. on that. This is not me being like, you better watch out, Finley, Ben, or otherwise.

Stacy:

You're not trying to police her, you're trying to do yourself.

EJ:

Yeah. I am looking after myself. Yes, especially

Stacy:

Which is a responsible thing to do.

EJ:

Yes. And so actually great example of a healthier way to go about oh, this is a trigger for me. Look after yourself. Oh, and actually I got to tell you with the whole like childhood abuse. This isn't exactly childhood, childhood abuse, but it's like kids in danger. Probably the most hilarious situation I have. This is actually funny because it was a movie and it was a Disney movie. It was. It's not the Peter Butterfew, is it? Yeah, it was Encanto. So I was watching Encanto shortly after I gave birth. Keep in mind, I, this is the first time I ever watched that movie. I am hyped up. This is three weeks after I gave birth. I am still...

Stacy:

I'm still pumped full of hormones

EJ:

and that beginning scene when they are running away and they find refuge in the Akkad.

Stacy:

Abuela is escaping with the triplets.

EJ:

Yeah, when Abuela is escaping with the triplets, I was just holding my newborn daughter and I, my heart and head was in Abuela during that time. Oh yeah. turned to my husband and yell cried at him, hug me now.

Stacy:

And he was like, Oh, shit. Are you okay? I'm like, don't you dare die. Yeah. And that scene is so heartbreaking too. He goes back to trying to talk sense into people. And instead he's killed right in front of her.

EJ:

So Yeah, spoiler. so That whole part was like, I was just like, a sobbing mess. I'm like, I will get through this

Stacy:

because there's a really good soundtrack There is.

EJ:

And I was right. And it was a wonderful ending. And I needed that whole story to pick up the broken

Stacy:

pieces of my heart. Also, can we just say like, when there's a flashback to when Mirabelle is little, was she just The most adorable thing you ever saw? Yes. I wanted to hug

Amy:

her.

EJ:

And now I love that movie. It's now one of my favorite Disney movies ever. But yeah triggers can be a funny thing. I'm over here I'm

Stacy:

trying to think of it. That's true, man. You never know how they're going to land.

EJ:

And, funny I'm looking through all of my backup questions. We covered so much of that, what I was trying to get at, really, and more. I'm over here really trying to think, dang, what's some good closing remarks we can say besides I

Stacy:

would just I just really want to reiterate the fact that stop treating authors like they owe you something. Yeah. Yeah. You bought okay, yeah. You bought the book. You supported that. They deeply appreciate that. But you got a book out of it, dumbass. This

Amy:

is something that I actually wrote a Tumblr post about. Basically, um, it boiled down to You don't always have to have the same level of interest in a fandom that you had before. Your

Stacy:

interests are going to fluctuate. You're going to You're allowed to outgrow a

Amy:

fandom. You are allowed to outgrow a fandom if you're not Content with what said creator is producing. You don't have to keep reading their stuff. You can move on. You

Stacy:

don't need to confront them anonymously. It's always anonymously too. Or it's a, I'm like, please

Amy:

do not disrespect this creator. Who is creating something for

Stacy:

free for you

Amy:

to read for free. I'm sorry. This is something that applies towards mostly fan fiction and tumblr stories and whatnot. I'm just like I

Stacy:

think, I think you could still apply that to authors. Like one thing that I know, a lot of authors did. I know Ruby Dixon did it. I know Aaron Regan did it. Aaron, please come back and start writing again. Please. Same thing for you, Amanda Milo, please. But I know those two, and I know there were others, but I just can't think of any off the top of my head. They did, during the pandemic, they did serials. And so there would be, like, a chapter a day. And it was on their Facebook page, so it was for free. aNd just the level of entitlement that I saw from some people in some comments was just like, it was, it's a toddler, and say you do the disappearing thumb trick to a toddler, you know what I'm talking about, where it looks like you pull your thumb off? And they just stand there for five hours telling you to do it again. Some of these people, it was like I need another chapter. And it's whoop dee shit for you, come back tomorrow. I will

Amy:

say, one of the worst, one of the worst things you can put in a comment... whEther on a Facebook serial chapter or on a chapter on AO3 or fanfiction. net,

EJ:

wherever. Or webtoons, because I think I know what you're about to say.

Stacy:

It's like, when is the next chapter coming?

EJ:

Oh, the other worst one is, that was so short. Or that was too short. Yes! Oh

Stacy:

god.

EJ:

I, I'm a fellow reader and I'm over here dear fuck. Yeah, that's cringey

Stacy:

as fuck. Just don't.

Amy:

It's like, when's the next chapter coming? It's oh, that was a great chapter. When's the next one? Or what happens next? Let me do that. I'm like,

Stacy:

please. Or even what, even, it doesn't even have to be on things that are serials. I know I've seen a webcomic going around that authors have used, where it's, author releases brand new book, reader, oh my god, it's so good. When's the next one coming out? Yeah, seriously. And then it's author response, points gun at head, yes. Yeah.

EJ:

I admit, I

Amy:

was guilty of this. Back when, back in my blogging

Stacy:

days, which was I think we've all been guilty of it at some point in time or another. Many years ago. But it's like I would make jokes when I would respond to books or serials or something where I'd be like, rub story on gums, when's the next one coming out? I'm tweaking basically. And usually that would get a laugh. It was a way for me to express enjoyment, but I'm not actually no, seriously, when's the next one coming out? It's no. We're in their space. They're nice enough to share it with us. Yep.

EJ:

I would say if you find yourself getting really pissed off about this I could be more sorry about it. And all I can say is this is, you're not alone. Use this as an opportunity to just, join us in...

Stacy:

Yeah, and if you're somebody who's been doing this there's no time like the present to change your behavior.

EJ:

Yeah and we we we seriously just, confess we will, we can easily regress and may just do that under the proper circumstances. Yep,

Stacy:

100%. Because we are human. Yes, exactly. And we recognize

Amy:

it. And then

Stacy:

we have room for improving again.

EJ:

cause we are human.

Stacy:

Exactly. Exactly. Unless you're the character in that stupid book I was talking about.

EJ:

I don't think she was human. Then you'll die to be human.

Stacy:

You'll die. You'll die of the dumb

EJ:

I'm over here actually thinking next episodes. We're we are going to be talking about proper books coming up. Yeah, we've got winter reads. We've got the fall of the Orc to talk about. I need

Stacy:

to finish it guys. Yeah, I need to start it. I'm so dreading this book. Oh, thank goodness. Oh, yeah. I'm so dreading it. Like I love Lily, I know I'm gonna love, I know. It is

Amy:

gonna hurt

Stacy:

so bad, but then

EJ:

it's gonna feel so good.

Stacy:

I don't know man, reading Kef's book, I cried from one eye into my other eye. Yep. I know, and it's just Stacey, trust. It's just You have to trust. I do, but at the same time, it's I'm like a cat that's had a shoe thrown at it, even if it was on accident, I'm still gonna think twice before I approach him again. That's fair.