The Great Book Panic

We talk about explicit sh*t on this podcast. We got the cute little explicit mark on every episode and everything! You could say we’re pretty knowledgeable about racy stuff in books.

So that means we all three can appreciate the difference between spicy erotic orc dick written by and for mature adults and educational nonfiction material created with young people in mind.

Not everyone can though. This Book Panic has come across our radar enough and affects us just enough that we’re devoting a whole dang episode to it.

Apologies for the lack of smut in this episode. More is coming! We’re calling this our “special episode”

Warnings for this episode include discussions about sexuality shaming, racism, and sexual abuse. Do not feel obligated to listen if you are not in a mental space to do so.

Quick update! There are Texans fighting this trend! (https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/education/article282842338.html)

Support the Texas Freedom to Read Project: https://www.txftrp.org 

View the whole list of stuff we reference on our website: https://talesfromtheorcden.com/2023/12/01/the-great-book-panic/ 

Music is called "Undead Bride" by Pagefire https://soundcloud.com/nerdymetalhead202/undead-bride 

Transcript

Stacy: 0:00

This is sort of our, this is sort of the Tales from the Orc and equivalent

EJ: 0:03

of tonight on a very special episode of Blossom. Welcome back to Tales from the Orc Den. So we talk about explicit shit on this podcast. Truly, truly,

Stacy: 0:18

truly explicit shit. Because we like it

EJ: 0:21

that way. Oh, we got a cute little explicit mark on every episode. So y'all can see this is not for your kids. Um, this is for when you are doing crafts and laundry and commuting to work, um, or walking. You could say, actually, uh, I would say we're pretty knowledgeable about racy stuff in books. I concur.

Stacy: 0:44

Kind of because, you know, we're in repentant

EJ: 0:46

perverts, but we also have to be well rounded in our reading and our education, despite some evidence to be, uh, the contrary, the contrary. Um, so, you know, we. But we do, we podcast about monster romance in particular because it's fun. Exactly.

Stacy: 1:11

And they got weird, they got weird wieners and I like that.

EJ: 1:14

And just weird looks

Amy: 1:16

and strange appendages that are never there in

Stacy: 1:19

just regular humans. Tragically.

EJ: 1:21

Indeed. So, but that means all three of us can appreciate the difference between a spicy erotic orc dick written by and for mature adults and educational material created with young people in mind. Exactly. And that's what brings us to, uh, the topic we want to discuss in today's episode. The issue is not everyone can appreciate the difference between adult stuff and kids stuff.

Stacy: 1:54

And yet somehow we're still able to, you know, become a professional. Oh, I don't know. I'm just going to say it off the top of my head. Politician.

EJ: 2:01

That's strange. Yeah. Um, I thought your

Stacy: 2:04

brainstem had to touch your brain before you could be one, but I've since learned to the

EJ: 2:09

contrary. Mm hmm. Well, that'll teach you, Stacey. Right?

Stacy: 2:15

How dare I assume confidence?

EJ: 2:18

So this whole like book panic came across our radar, um, enough that it, it affects us in, in, uh, in some of us more than others in kind of interesting ways. And, and we're just, we're just going to freaking devote a whole episode to it because even if it doesn't affect some of us professionally, it affects us, uh, in some ways. Uh, familially, um. And just, you know, damn it. We care about kids. Um, so there we go. I work with children. Uh, two of us work with kiddos. Uh, the other one works me. Uh, I, I work with adults who sometimes act like kiddos, um, which is fair, but I do have adults are horrible. Yeah, I, I do happen to have a kiddo myself. So I suppose I'm in an interesting place. Uh, when I look at, uh, moral panic and parents,

Stacy: 3:12

Well, yeah, and I helped raise several of my nieces and nephews, so I was caught up

EJ: 3:16

in that as well. So, so, Stacey, you're a parental figure. Yes, I am a vice mom, that was the joke. She's definitely a parent

Amy: 3:24

or a parent, like you said, parental figure, a guardian.

EJ: 3:27

Yeah.

Stacy: 3:28

Vice mom is what

EJ: 3:29

they called me. So I, I want to lay a bit of a groundwork because I don't want to assume, uh, our non American audience, or even our American audience for that matter, is going to immediately know, what the hell are they hinting at with the weird poly Tition stuff and quick panic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could make a solid argument that there's been probably a moral panic in the U. S. and about the Obama administration. I can at least say as someone who, right. It's been interesting, especially because I grew up in a very conservative American cultural background. I grew up in super hello white Midwest that tends to run conservative. However, however, our state of focus is Texas. Oh, Texas. The state's been having some time having a time. I, they recently passed a what I think is a rather broad bill. It demands. Any book vendor of public school libraries to rate their books for explicit content. And that's going to be starting in the middle of 2024. We're recording this episode towards the end of 2023. And this is just one little drop in this, like, waterfall backdrop of this, of a conservative political surge that's inspired, and this is an actual number, of 1, 269. Documented demands to censor books in American libraries since 2022. That's the highest number the American Library Association has recorded in 20 years, and that's just when they started recording those numbers. And yes, I will give That reference in the show notes, because I believe, unlike this article we're going to talk about, I believe in referencing my sources. Yeah, exactly.

Stacy: 5:30

Primary sources and citing them appropriately.

EJ: 5:33

And

Amy: 5:34

also getting both viewpoints.

EJ: 5:36

Oh my goodness. Yeah, so my day, my daytime career, without getting into too many details, has focused pretty much always on, on data and research. Uh, nothing, in my opinion, nothing really makes these numbers, like this big ass number really come alive, like a good anecdote. And in the past couple of weeks over on Discord, Amy shared what I think is a hell of an anecdote, anecdote. Uh, for these numbers, for these trends that's going on in the U. S., that, uh, for, you know, there is a panic about what kids are being exposed to. So, uh, this article is from a Texas conservative blog. Um, it was released in September of 2023. Uh, I will, I will admit, I don't find the article actually that remarkable. as a piece of journalism. Um, as someone who actually happens to have, uh, some formal training in research and journalism for that matter, I have several issues with this, uh, this journalist. And that all being said, I do actually find it an interesting glimpse into what the heck is kind of going on with this. So I'm going to read this article, which is mercifully short. And then I have some questions for Amy, who happens to work in the realm of libraries as a professional librarian. And, uh, Yeah, I'm just going to ask her a crap ton of questions. But pretty much I'm expecting Stacey and myself to be somewhere between Amy's interviewers and hype women. Yeah, basically. That's how this is going to go. Appreciate it.

Stacy: 7:29

We're going to hold her earrings while she kicks this bitch's

EJ: 7:31

ass. Right. So, so first this article, just, just to lay it out for you guys. What the, what is this article that's got, uh, that's crawled up our craw? Um, and I will also leave it in the show notes too. I, uh, if you want to give them the clicks, I'm fine with that. If you want to

Stacy: 7:50

damage your intellect that

EJ: 7:52

dangerously. Mm hmm. So, the title is New Braunfels Public Libraries Filled with Sexually Explicit Books. The books were found in both libraries youth sections. Two new Braunfels public libraries are being exposed for having sexually explicit books targeting children. Jolene Mezros, a mother from New Brunfels, shared with the Texas Scorecard sexually explicit books she and other moms found in their local libraries. The books were found in the early readers, juvenile, and youth sections of the libraries. They were

Stacy: 8:30

all found in the teenage section, I fucking guarantee

EJ: 8:33

it. Actually,

Amy: 8:35

I will say, most of them were, yes. Most likely found in the YA slash teen section. But I'll get to that later. There was at least, there was an Eastie reader and at least one juvenile book. But they were all non

EJ: 8:49

fiction. Right.

Amy: 8:51

In other words, they are meant to be informational and

Stacy: 8:53

educational. Right, it was a, it was a teaching tool. Not a... Hey kids, you want to learn how to... You know, you want to learn what a fucking Stanley Steamer is?

EJ: 9:05

Mesoros was shocked to discover that most of these books were in a closed section of one library reserved for ages 13 to 18. According to the sign in front of the section, staff members can relocate adults from the area. Can I step in real quick? Yes.

Amy: 9:26

Okay, so this is most likely the teen area and the reason for relocating the adults is because that should be a designated area for teens only. Slash library staff,

Stacy: 9:40

but which makes sense. And there's always going to be a fucking creeper.

EJ: 9:43

Exactly. You actually, yeah, you kind of hit it right there. But anyway, I'll go on. In the book shared by Mazaros, graphic images depicted masturbation and sexual acts. They also showed various pictures of transgender individuals naked. Teaching children that it's normal to use sterilizing puberty blockers, and cross sex hormones, and remove healthy body parts. one book entitled, Sex is a Funny Word. Shows images of various body parts, and explains that touching those body parts can feel good. The book was labeled with a J, meaning it was for juveniles. Another book, titled You Do You, labeled for youth, had a section talking about getting yourself off. The book explains how to masturbate, and why it's the safest form of sex. And doesn't involve other people. And that's incorrect how? I, I'm over here like no lies detected. Yeah, seriously.

Stacy: 10:49

Pretty much.

EJ: 10:52

A book labeled for youth called Let's Talk About It shows graphic images of naked bodies. It depicts people having sex, and gives children a step by step tutorial on how to masturbate. As a Christian woman, it's hard to look at this stuff, Mezros told Texas Scorecard. But if we're ignoring that it's there, then we're ignoring the fact that our children are having to look at it. Mezaros also shared that it's that sexually explicit books weren't the only questionable materials found in the children's section. Other books containing critical race theory, diversity, equity, and inclusion teachings. advocacy, and violence against conservatives were also in the children's and youth section.

Stacy: 11:45

I'm calling bullshit on that last one. That didn't

EJ: 11:47

fucking happen. The Violence Against Conservatives, I want to know which book that was.

Amy: 11:52

There is a list. I think it was, hang on, they do have it below. It was Harry Potter, wasn't it?

EJ: 11:56

They have it below. There we go. Yeah. Steal This Country. One book titled Steal This Country by Alexandra Sto Styrone, I certainly hope I'm sorry if I'm butchering any names here, by the way, describes itself as a handbook for resistance, persistence and fixing everything and explains white privilege. The book claims that white privilege is being able to walk down the street without fear of harassment from cops or shop in a store without being the object of suspicion. The author also asserts that white people are privileged and that they can commit acts of violence without being called terrorists. Yeah,

Stacy: 12:41

we've seen examples of that with every

EJ: 12:42

fucking shooting. Other books like We Can't Breathe, Unequal, A Story of America, and Rise Up, How You Can Join the Fight Against White Supremacy, were also found in the children's section. As an aside, don't worry, dear readers, uh, we will have these books in the show notes, so you can check them out for yourselves.

Stacy: 13:05

I'm going to go buy one copy of each of them just to spite this bitch.

EJ: 13:10

Mezros sent Texas Scorecard videos of the new Braunfels mayor, Neil Linaerts, saying during a mayoral debate that he, that while he believes in the First Amendment, Sexually explicit books have no place in the library children's section. However, after his election, he walked back his statement at a city council meeting, saying that the city council is not in the business of putting, picking, or placing library books in the libraries.

Amy: 13:43

They hire librarians for that very reason. What

Stacy: 13:47

a novel fucking concept. Right?

EJ: 13:51

Another local mom, Cassie Brown, said that when she brought these explicit books to the city council's attention, the librarians laughed and rolled their eyes as she showed them the images in the book. It's because she was

Stacy: 14:05

there last week with a different book, doing the same fucking

EJ: 14:08

thing. The librarians also allegedly told Brown that the library is not a safe place for children, will totally get into what the heck was probably going on there, so don't worry. Ultimately, the library is a place that should help change the trajectory of your life, explained Brown. Which it is. Yes. Yeah. No lies detected, Books are important, and they should inspire you and help you learn things. Yeah. Unfortunately, the books that they're stacking on shelves now are harming our children. Rondi Che, another mother in New Brunfels, who helped Mezaros look through the books, told Texas Scorecard that although the material was dark, they are willing to fight the fight. Oh, fuck off. We love our country and the children in this community. Hold on Stacey, we're almost there. I'm gonna

Stacy: 15:07

fucking stab everybody.

EJ: 15:09

Calm down, calm down. We love our country and the children in this community. And it's appalling Only the white ones.

Stacy: 15:16

Stacey, hold back, hold back, let me

EJ: 15:19

through this whole thing. No, say it again Stacey. We love our country and the children in this community. And it's appalling that these types of books are being pushed onto the children. It is complete sexualization and they use freedom of speech to force it on us, said Che. Sorry, that was a little bit dramatic on my part.

Stacy: 15:42

But also, dear lord, freedom of speech means that people are allowed to speak freely.

EJ: 15:48

Oh, man. Not without consequences, of course, but also if there's no crime actually being committed here, then I don't know what to tell you. Um, yeah. Okay, buckle up for this next one, Stacy. I need you to take deep breaths. Please deep breaths. We are so close to the end. Deep breaths. Okay, but I

Stacy: 16:13

won't like it.

EJ: 16:14

We know you won't because we don't either. We had to pray intermittently during the scouring because it is dark what is in those books. I cannot even imagine what it is doing to the kids. We are willing to fight this fight until we get something done. Children are our next leaders and we need them to grow up healthy, not in a world of perversion, she added. Texas Scorecard reached out to Mayor Linitz, but he has not responded to a request for comment. Texas Scorecard also contacted the new Brunfels Library Director, Gretchen Pruitt, and Youth Services Librarian, Whitney Hasler, but did not receive a response from either before publication. And I will say, as an editorial aside, good for you too!

Amy: 17:08

They probably have a marketing and communications sort of thing that is responsible for answering any and all media

EJ: 17:15

inquiries. Abso frickin lutely. it's a very common thing to have, like, an actual, like, process when you're getting stuff like this. When you're a public servant, heck, when you're even working, I've, I've only volunteered in libraries, I have worked in academic libraries, but only as a student, so I was only a baby. Um, but even as a baby, even I knew that there was protocol if you had the outside. Asking for stuff like you had to go through people, you

Amy: 17:52

don't say anything to the media, you direct them to, to you direct them to where they need to go,

EJ: 17:58

because the big part with that is when you're a public librarian you are then a public servant when you are a public servant, you are speaking with a voice of the local government and that's not to be trifled with despite what some politicians may think still not to be trifled with. So, uh, anyway, so I have some questions for Amy, because boy, this has a lot to unpack here, and again, like, I tried, I tried being, uh, I don't know, the dramatic part of me did get away a little bit there, but only because there are some parts of this that honestly felt like something straight out of, like, a Simpsons cartoon, with how terribly condescending and patronizing. It was. Um, so I'm, I'm simultaneously sorry and yet not sorry enough for that. I'm just going to get on to these questions now, Amy. Can you briefly describe the selection and review process for books in a given public library, particularly in the youth sections.

Amy: 19:03

All right. So, first, I do want to clarify that regarding the use of youth in this instance, to my understanding, it's being used to represent teens, young adults, also known as YA, or adolescents, in other words, patrons aged 13 to 18. Now the selection and review policy for public libraries will usually be available on the library's website. They believe in immense transparency, they want their community to know how we decide what we get in the library. And typically titles that are intended for a teen or YA audience will be stated as such from the vendors that we go through, not to mention the book lists. And, um, the professional library journals that we consult for reviews.

EJ: 19:56

Um, let's see. That is actually a really good point that I don't know if everyone in the public quite understands. At least in the American library world, there is a whole, there are several bodies of organizations that make up A whole, a whole framework for funneling books to a library is so structured, it is so formal that, like, to me, it, it's actually a real puzzle to get a lot of Indies, uh, Indie, Indie published books into a library because there are so many types Formalized channels and policies to work through, which makes sense. And this is not me being like, take down the policies. This is just me acknowledging, you can't just stuff a book willy nilly. Into a library. It's not like someone can go out and make a zine or something and then just shove it into their library. exceptions, but you'll still have to go through a cataloger, and those guys are some of the most particular people I have ever met.

Amy: 21:03

They are, they are. But basically, we take, we take into account reviews from professional journals such as school library journal and book list. Um, in order to decide whether or not, one, a book has merit, and two, should it, should it be For the community that we are serving and but when I say we, I mean, the general we as in those that are in librarianship. Um, and last, we also take into account circulation and checkout statistics of either books by the same author. If it is another book, it's already in collection or similar titles are reviewed to gauge interests of the community. Because if a book that features a certain topic or a certain story or whatever that we already have is just sitting there on the shelf collecting dust, there is no point in getting another book that is similar. And that's the great thing about the reviews, because they will often compare them to other books. You can say, you have a debut author, and they say, oh, if you like such and such author and this such and such author, then definitely you want to get this one. Or. In the other vein, they will say, as long as you have this author and this author in your collection already, you don't need to worry about this one

EJ: 22:24

at all. Right. Right. And, and I think this is, uh, this is a good transition into, like, the, once, once the book comes through the vendors and it hits the library, there's a whole other process? Where it's figuring out where the heck it's going to go, and every library is actually kind of a special, unique place. So this kind of brings me to my next question. What is common for a library's policies and guidelines for categorizing and relocating books based on age appropriateness?

Amy: 22:59

Okay, as I did mention in question one, the title, the titles will usually have the age marketed. In other words, the audience will be noted, um, and stated on the vendor's site for each title. They will say either children from ages 5 to 6, or teen from 12 to 14, or even older teen from 5 to 16. 16 to

EJ: 23:24

18. And it would make sense if they don't reinvent the wheel. Yes.

Stacy: 23:28

Even some books themselves have that on them. Yeah. For grade school readers or something like

EJ: 23:35

that. Absolutely. This is book marketing 101. I think the romance world actually knows this probably better than everyone, anyone really, because like, even for adult women, some of them, they don't want spicy, they want steamy. And so you better be very explicit about that, or you will have very angry reviews and the marketplace will punish you. Most assuredly. Yes. And so like Yeah, absolutely. It's, uh, it's something that, uh, other, other book vendors are going to appreciate. Like, yeah, you know, something that is for adults is not going to appeal to teens and something. It's why they're even like, you know, splitting hairs with like new adult versus young adult now. Like, this is how important it is to book marketing to figure out right age appropriateness. Please don't get me

Amy: 24:29

started on the new adult thing because it should not be a thing anyway. It's all adults.

EJ: 24:34

It's all adults. I

Amy: 24:37

like it. Knowledge age to seniors or whatever.

Stacy: 24:40

I like, I like it for my use. Like, I don't think it's a tool that a library needs to use, but I like it just because then I know to avoid that book because new adults are boring. And I went through all of that shit already and I don't want to read about your 22 year old angst. Because I went through it and I don't want to relive it, quite frankly.

EJ: 24:58

That is fair.

Amy: 25:01

I will say on the vendor, on the vendor site, sometimes the professional reviews will contradict the intended audience. And they'll state in their review that the title may be better suited for an adult or a middle grade audience. This has happened with some YA books. They've said, due to the level of... The content, it actually would be better suited for an adult audience or an older, like, I want to say 17 and up audience. Or if it reads young, it might actually be more appropriate for a middle

EJ: 25:35

grade audience. Right, and I think this is where it can be really useful for the individual library, because some libraries do have a very specific Teen section, some of them even have preteeny sort of sections, and they can, you know, they can split hairs accordingly

Amy: 25:52

and of course, as you did mention EJ, this is going to vary from library to library with regards to the nuances. What one library system may constitute as being YA, another one may constitute as being middle grade or something to that extent. But the term, okay, I will say the terms teen, YA, youth, adolescent, those are all interchangeable. And that's typically going to be covering From middle school all the way through high school, but it always depends on your child's or on the child's reading level.

EJ: 26:28

Yeah, and kids reading levels do vary a lot at that age. Just ask any English teacher. Yes. Kind of getting a bit to the, the controversies at hand, um, or really the made up controversies, um, how I, I'm curious, have, have you or, or any of your, your fellow librarians ever handled concerns from parents or community members about materials in this sort of

Amy: 27:00

way? I'm actually relieved to say that none of my own colleagues, nor I, have had to handle these kinds of concerns from patrons, particularly parents. I mean, I have spoken with my supervisor in the past, and while there is one that occasionally comes through, it's usually for an adult book or something like that. But it. There's, there's a proper procedure and the patrons are then guided to go through that procedure. Now, this is another part of collection policy that libraries of course should have. It should also include a request for reconsideration of library materials. Now this does allow patrons opportunity to make their concerns known to the library through proper procedures. Usually there will be a form that the patron has to fill out. Not anonymously. They have to give their name, or, well, in the instance of the New Braunfels one, they also include, the options of do you represent yourself, or an organization name, and, actually, no, even so, they'll still, they'll, you still have to put in your name, but you have, you have to say that you're representing yourself, or whatever group you're representing, and...

EJ: 28:18

Which is actually a really good distinction. That's a smart distinction.

Amy: 28:22

In our instance, my colleagues would most likely, procedure would have us direct them to the collection development policy so they can move forward at their own discretion and stop. Well, full stop. We would not go any further than that

EJ: 28:38

with them. I admit I'm going to skip a little bit on, uh, some of the questions here, uh, mostly because I think that this kind of moves over quite well. What is your response to the allegations? That the article mentioned of the library is dismissing the librarians dismissing parental concerns about explicit or inappropriate content, and in particular that phrase that the librarians allegedly said the library is not a safe place for children. Okay, I'm

Amy: 29:14

going to answer the first part first and then the second part second, obviously. Cool, cool. Granted, the first part is a doozy. It's a bit hard to answer by not being present at the, at the, at the alleged incident and also not getting the full story from this. Quote unquote, in my opinion, biased article. according to Miriam Webster, explicit is defined as open in the depiction of nudity or sexuality. Very vague, very general,

EJ: 29:44

right? Mm-Hmm.

Amy: 29:46

I think an article from 2016 from the National Coalition Against Censorship says it best. This is going to be a very long quote that I'm going to be giving y'all, so brace yourselves. Terms like sexually explicit and pornography are so subjective as to be essentially meaningless. They can be applied to Hustler and National Geographic, Madame Bovary, and Fifty Shades of Grey.

Stacy: 30:14

Yep, I read that same article.

Amy: 30:16

That doesn't surprise me. This kind of material is also protected speech unless it's obscene. Oxford defines to be obscene, or sorry, not Oxford, well, to be obscene, a book would have to be patently offensive. appeal to the prurient interest, this is where the Oxford definition comes in, or having or encouraging an excessive interest in sexual matters, that's the definition of prurient, and most critically, lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Critics of these books are not concerned with law, literature, or even education. They use terms like pornography to convey their personal antipathy to sexual content. Yep. And the end quote from the article. And honestly, there's lots of material to be viewed at the National Coalition, uh, uh, against censorship. So, of course,

Stacy: 31:20

Well, it's, it's like the line, Of course, I'm, I'm,

EJ: 31:23

Go ahead. Oh, well, I was going to

Amy: 31:25

say EJ is most likely going to link this one, but yes, by all means, view, view the website. They also have toolkits in fighting book bans and also what you can do as the general

EJ: 31:36

public

Stacy: 31:36

it just reminds me of the lyric from Smut by Tom Lehrer. To be smut, it must be utterly without any social redeeming importance.

EJ: 31:45

I think that's that is tricky, like explicit or inappropriate, we're dealing with really subjective terms there. I think that's a big reason why we often have to go to like, okay, what's the dictionary definition, because a lot of it really just comes down to what are your cultural norms? What are personal norms? Norms, and this varies a whole lot in the U. S., it varies a whole lot in the Western world, it's sort of like, well, what the hell do you mean by explicit? Can we get some very specific things?

Stacy: 32:15

They don't they don't want to be specific. They want to keep it vague because as long as they keep it vague, it can become an umbrella term. They can stuff anything

EJ: 32:23

under right. Right. And I guess, like, my very concern is like, no, no, that's not that's a feature. Not a bug. Exactly. Especially because, like, I'm looking at this and I like this. Uh, this also affects any child who is not straight. Um, this affects any child, heck, in this particular article, I swear, they are like dancing this line of just being black means you're being inappropriate and explicit.

Stacy: 32:49

Yeah. All they need is you can do anything. The only thing that would have more clearly stated their disdain for people who aren't lily white is if they had come out and said, I hate anybody who's not lily white. That is literally the only way they could have been more overt.

EJ: 33:05

UM, but anyway, so there was another part of that question, which is.

Amy: 33:11

I did want to get into just a little bit more with regards to that. But considering the books that were mentioned in the article from Texas Scorecard, they were all non fiction with a majority being intended for a teen adolescent reader. These are materials that educate, not titillate. But it's an extremely awkward and difficult time and books can help provide answers or even expand on answers that parents provide. In fact, it's often better for parents to explore and research with their teens. So they are better informed as well.

Stacy: 33:46

Well, the thing is, is like, so. My sister, so when I was a teenager, I was 15 turning 16 when I moved in with my older sister and she was 11 years older than I am, so she's, she was 27 at the time. And when I moved in, my nieces and nephew were, my nephew was, I think, 7 and then my nieces were, I believe, 3 and like 18 months. And... The, you know, Brendan had kind of figured out, like, you know, he'd asked where babies come from, and I think, you know, Mom had just had a frank conversation with him, but the girl, when the girl started asking, they were quite a bit younger than he was, and Margie just went to the library,

EJ: 34:30

and she checked out this awesome book, that was, I think it's just called, Where

Stacy: 34:34

Do Babies Come From?

EJ: 34:36

Oh, yeah. I know that one. I had that one. Engaging.

Stacy: 34:40

Yeah, right. The one where it's the, it talks about like an orgasm is like, it's like a, it's like a big hug that you give somebody that is something that grown ups do. And so it was in no way, shape, or form titillating or pur purient, like that dumb bitch who wrote the article would like to claim. But it was... It was straightforward without being frightening and it really cleared stuff up for Jesse and Alexa. It showed pictures of, you know, what naked bodies look like and, but it was done in a very cartoony style. In fact, I'm 90 percent sure that I read other books that that illustrator did, uh, uh, illustrations for, but it was just this great helpful tool. that sort of explains sexuality in babies without being something that either sexualized the children, like, like dumb bitch, uh, number two claims, but it was a way to provide information on an age appropriate level without scaring the shit out of some kid by talking about something, you know, it's not like you plunked him down and turned on porn and this is the kind of shit that they're going after because it's like, yes, okay, technically you could state that this is sexually explicit because this. Explicitly explains what sex is, but it's done in an age appropriate, non erotic way to answer questions that every child has. And the fact that these fucking bitches want to mix all of this shit in together like it's all the same, like, uh, pornography, it's, it's inappropriate, it's appropriate. It was designed specifically for this audience and mind, in, in, to be the least traumatizing. way to disseminate information in the first place. And so the fact that these morons would like to keep their, not just their children, but everyone's children basically trapped in, you know, the dark, that the only light is by the books that they burn is like, fuck you, bitch. That's not happening on my watch. I'll be damned first.

EJ: 36:43

You

Stacy: 36:43

make a good point though, Stacey. Go ahead. It just makes me so angry that somebody would look at such a lovely little book with just the best intentions and just the nicest way to explain sexuality to small children and would try and turn it into something dirty. It says more about them as a person than it does about the book itself. I

Amy: 37:07

am in agreement with you there. But you did hit the nail on the head, though, with regards to the parental business, because yes, These parents can be concerned about what their children are reading, not everyone else though. Exactly. That is where they are completely overstepping. Yes, you can keep your children, your two children, Mary Sue and Bobby Joe over there, you can keep them from reading it. You cannot keep Maria, daughter of Susan, from reading

EJ: 37:40

it.

Stacy: 37:40

Exactly. And that's so enraging, because it's like, could you just focus on traumatizing your own kids, so that when they're 16, you know, your daughter runs out and jumps into the first same sex relationship she can have, more to spite you than because she actually has same sex leanings? Like, could you just get on with driving your children away and leave everybody else's kids alone?

Amy: 38:01

There are so many lists that include that sort of thing, where basically the parents were just far too overprotective or too sheltering, and then once the child, once the child has reached adulthood, they go hog wild once they have

Stacy: 38:15

that freedom. Absolutely! Of course they do. It's, it's the joke that everybody ever said about how the wildest kids in school were the preacher's kids. It's, it's that same thing. When you grow up in a repressive, denying household, when you're suddenly allowed access to everything you were denied, you're gonna glut yourself. I did the same damn thing

EJ: 38:35

when I got away from my parents. Yeah. It's, and it's a hard thing to put kids into, and I think this is, uh, uh, this is kind of a, a thing that I've noticed in some American public libraries. Uh, they sort of see libraries as this extended daycare of sorts. Yes.

Stacy: 38:59

Oh, I'm sure Amy has many horror stories about that. It's actually

Amy: 39:02

gonna answer the second part of ejs question. Oh boy.

EJ: 39:06

Excellent.

Amy: 39:09

All right. Excuse my laughter. I'm sorry. But it, it's, it's all too true. Yes, there is that mentality in quite a few community members in America that public libraries are seen as an extension of the daycare. They are not. So, in regards to the, the library is not a safe place for children, quote, this is likely a truncated statement. I am going to rectify that. The library is not a safe place for unattended children.

EJ: 39:41

Yes. Cheers to that. Which is

Stacy: 39:44

probably what the librarian said in the first place.

Amy: 39:48

Most likely, but library staff can't stand in as parent or guardian for minors in the library. Parents are made aware of this because policies are posted that require all minors, usually under 13, to be accompanied by a guardian or parent. Any number of things could happen in a library, a public space. The library serves everyone in the public.

Stacy: 40:14

Yep, not just some overprivileged assholes children.

Amy: 40:20

Not to mention there could be any number of disasters that could happen. There's a tornado, there could be a tornado warning and your child is at the library. What are they supposed to do? The libraries will most likely call the police. If they cannot find, if they cannot locate the guardian or parents, the child would need to be put into

Stacy: 40:41

custody. Yeah,

Amy: 40:42

yes, exactly. The child need to be put into custody because We cannot, we are not responsible for this child. Um, but it isn't the job of library staff to parent children, as that is what the parent is for. Right,

Stacy: 40:56

what a novel thought.

EJ: 40:58

That is kind of an interesting paradox here, because these particular mothers sound like they're very concerned about their kids. And at the same time, there is a very jaded part of me. And part of that has been, uh, you know, spending my whole life in libraries in some way or another. Like, it's almost always. The, the ones who give the library staff the most grief are almost always the ones who give the library staff the most grief in other ways. Yep, double meaning in that phrase.

Stacy: 41:40

Yep.

EJ: 41:41

Sure. I, you know, I've, I've yet to meet a responsible, likable library patron. Who is also the same sort of person who makes their problems the library's problems. Exactly. This does not make them an unconcerned patron. This does not make them a unengaged patron. Uh, this makes them a functioning member of a society. And that's all I'm going

Stacy: 42:09

to

EJ: 42:09

give them, you know, what can I say? Like, so I would be terribly curious. I, of what the new run felt librarians who've ever met these women would have to say about their experiences with them again. This is like, the very jaded skeptical part of me and I would not want any of those librarians to go on record. I do want to ask a slightly more positive sounding question, Amy, since, you know, it's been a little bit heavy. What do you think are libraries responsibility to provide diverse materials while adhering to community standards? Uh.

Amy: 42:51

A great

EJ: 42:52

question. It sounds so policy like, but also it's like, it did bring out the inner, like, wannabe librarian in me. I'm like, tell us of our responsibility to diversity.

Amy: 43:07

Honestly, EJ, I consider you a fellow information professional. Technically, I would also put Stacey there too, considering the dearth of books that she reads. Right?

Stacy: 43:22

To be fair, I do have a degree in history, so I have gathered a fair share of, uh, information.

EJ: 43:29

There you

Amy: 43:29

go. All right. So, the main area of libraries is in service, as in service to their community. All of it. No community is going to have the same life experiences nor the same level of knowledge. It is the task of librarians to research and locate materials that will serve their community's needs, whether that is informational, creative, or entertaining. And I'm going to be getting into something that is really personal to me, and I think It's, it's actually something that I had read about in previous articles from either school library journal or, or book list. I can't remember which one it was, but books serve as both mirrors and windows, allowing us to find ourselves and also to understand others from different walks of life. This helps to build empathy for others who have had different life experiences from us. Books can help remove the fear of the other.

EJ: 44:32

Yep. Actually, cheers to that. That does actually hit me personally, too. By the way, that whole statement, that could have been like a library's, like, mission statement for their year, which sounds great. 100%. It would cause a ruckus, but I would love it. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, as, as a constituent and citizen, I'd be like, oh, yeah, um, and also it hits me personally I'll probably keep on saying it because they made race a thing in this article. So I'm going to make race a thing in my commentary. Um, I grew up in an all white community and it wasn't until college that I talked to anyone who was not white in a non service, non professional capacity. Which I remember when I told that to one of my black professors and she was like, are you freaking kidding me? Blew her mind. And I'm like, that is normal. Your reaction is normal. But I'm going to tell you probably the biggest saving grace I had was I had a mother. Who insisted I had racially diverse books. So even when I didn't have a socially diverse world, I was surrounded by stories where non white children were normal and celebrated. And that, I think, helped a lot. That, and also, I was a 90s kid, so I grew up with Reading Rainbow, and Lamar Burton is like Mr. Rogers to me. I

Amy: 46:01

love

EJ: 46:01

that man. So, you know, I'm over here, like, non white role models are so huge, including for little white girls, like I was. Agree.

Stacy: 46:14

Yeah, I would agree with that. And also Lamar Burton's been on the air since, uh. Well, before I was old enough to watch reading rainbow. So I, too, grew up

EJ: 46:23

watching reading rainbow. Same

Amy: 46:25

here. I love

EJ: 46:27

that, man. Hell, yeah, but yeah, good statement there. Amy. I like it. I wasn't

Amy: 46:32

quite finished. There was a little

EJ: 46:33

bit more.

Amy: 46:38

All right. To continue, and hopefully into my conclusion for this question, libraries need to provide many voices, especially in stories. And as communities change and grow, the library must do so as well. And I think one of the biggest issues in certain communities is they're not accepting that sort of change in their community. Yeah. They think that it's all the lily white still. When in fact it is not.

EJ: 47:11

I happen to actually have a really great for the, for the listeners in our audience who would like a really like hardcore academic Work on why books get censored. I have a really good, um, recommendation and it's, and for the record, I'm bias, pretty much anything and everything written by Dr. Emily Knox, who is currently on faculty for the library school, also known as the eye school at the University of Illinois and Urbana Champaign. She has built up an entire career. Over, uh, researching and writing about book censorship and in fact she touches on that,

Amy: 47:58

I definitely know the name.

EJ: 48:00

I will throw that in the show notes because Dr. Emily Knox is just a overall good person to know about in, in not just the library world. and she's, she's a fellow short haired gal like myself, which is another fun thing about her, I think. Um, but, um, but yeah, uh, Great person to know for the library world. Also a great person to know for my fellow Americans because her focus has been on American culture. Super cool. So, uh, anyway, good person. I will throw her in the show notes. Love it. Uh, man, if you, if y'all were expecting a bunch of sex, I mean, you, you are getting some sex, just maybe not in the way you might have been expecting it. I

Stacy: 48:46

mean, I read a book where a woman ends up with a polar bear shifter and... You know, they have sex while he's in his polar bear form and I'm okay

EJ: 48:54

with it. That's on my TBR because I think I know what you're talking

Stacy: 48:58

about. Yes, a polar, uh, a polar expedition. Yes. Yeah, he is so fucking good. The way it's written, the way it's written is great because it is footnotes galore and the footnotes are

EJ: 49:10

usually hilarious. It looks like a really fun winter read. Oh, very cool. Yeah. Perfect. Uh, one more question I've got for you, Amy. Um, at least one more. can you share insights into the specific books mentioned in the article, including their categorization and availability in the library? And also, are there any other dark materials you would like to recommend?

Amy: 49:41

SO, the biggest insight I can share about most of the titles mentioned, either in the text or in the photos included in the article, is that the majority were given a starred review by one or more professional reviewers. Now, to clarify, a starred review is a very coveted thing in the library world. To receive one is to pretty much have the seal of approval from whichever journal that review came from. I will say that the one that is the most coveted is the Kirkus Review starred.

Stacy: 50:21

Review. Yeah, I even I think I've definitely heard of the Kirkus Review

EJ: 50:25

before. Yes,

Stacy: 50:26

and I'm not, I'm not a librarian, so.

EJ: 50:29

Kirkus

Amy: 50:30

is definitely one of the most prominent of reviewing journals in the library industry and they do not pull their punches. Oftentimes, oftentimes. While everyone, every other review journal will have positive, positive, positive, oftentimes they will have the negative or the meh review. They are, they are very, they scrutinize. But anyways, um, children, speaking of scrutinization, children's books. are scrutinized even more so than adult marketed materials. The reviewers are thorough in their assessment of these materials, especially non fiction titles. Educational materials must be able to share accurate and reliable information in a way that is readable for the intended age group. This, I believe, also includes any images or pictures used. And this is actually where I get a lot of my issues. Regarding the books that they're mentioning the images that they're talking about that they're talking about are as Stacy pointed out their illustrations almost claymation like in some regard, um, one of the books was the very first one that I mentioned on there is sex is a funny word and there's another thing I want to mention about this. And I actually want to bring up my. Copy, because I checked it out. I checked it out because I wanted to be sure that I could at least give some Some insight on this particular

EJ: 52:14

book. Are you gonna appreciate that? Heck yeah.

Amy: 52:19

But it's called sex is a funny word from Gary Silverberg and Fiona Smythe or Smith I cannot I don't know how she pronounces it. But anyways

EJ: 52:30

Oh, is it that Smith with the Y? Yes. Oh, yeah. I never know how to, I have, I've never known how to pronounce it. I kind of have to ask. I always have to ask. Just because you,

Stacy: 52:39

that's interesting.

EJ: 52:40

Yeah.

Amy: 52:42

All right. So, Sex is a Funny Word, a book about bodies, feelings, and you. So, right before the book actually starts. To the grown up reader. This is a very different kind of book. Let me actually get this a bit bigger so I can actually read it. Most books about sex are full of answers. Answers can be helpful and reassuring, but they also tell us what to think and even how to think instead of encouraging us to think for ourselves and to honor our own knowledge and experience. Most books about sex focus only on reproduction and intercourse. You'll find neither of these topics in our book, What Makes a Baby? The first book in this series, geared towards younger readers, is about reproduction. The next book, following this one for older readers, will include information on intercourse. By the way, this book is technically a juvenile non fiction book. So basically that would be... I want to say typically that falls within grades three through five. Um, anyways, sex education is more than science and the so called facts of life. I believe the most important part of sex education is exploring and sharing our feelings, values, and beliefs, and helping kids connect what they learn to their communities, um, histories, families, and cultures. That's what this book allows you to do. We provided the framework and basic information about bodies. Gender and touch, and we've left blanks that only you and the kids in your life can fill in. The truth is that sex is a funny word, but it's also a complicated one, so meaningful conversations about sex might not always feel easy or fun, but having them prepares all of us for life as it is. Sex is a funny word is here to help. How to use this book. This book is meant to be read over weeks, months, and years, rather than just a few sittings. You'll find that it sparks different conversations at different ages and stages. Before you read the book with children or give it to children to read on their own, read it through yourself. Pay attention to the question pages at the ends of each chapter. Think through your own answers or responses to those questions and think about how you would address those questions with a child. This is especially important for the last chapter in section four called Secret Touch, which deals with sexual abuse. This is a difficult topic for all of us. We don't want to imagine our children being sexually victimized. And many of us have our own experiences of sexual harassment and violence, which we can't help but bring to mind when thinking about the safety of children in our lives. Read over this chapter carefully before reading with a young person, and give yourself time and permission to respond on your own before you try to read it with a child. Throughout the book, when you reach a question page, share your answers. If the children you are reading with aren't ready to share their own, don't pressure them. If you are patient and make room for kids to choose when to talk, eventually they will. Unique features of this book, fun and interactive. Each, or every chapter begins with a comic and ends with a question page or activity page. If kids want to skip ahead, let them. There's always time to go back later. Jargon free. I love this. We avoid using terminology and identity labels whenever possible to make room for the different ways we describe ourselves. But we've also offered a glossary in the back of the book with words that can be hard to explain. No pressure. Again, I love this. The only sexual activity in this book is masturbation in Touching Yourself, Section 4. We'll address more behaviors in the last book in this series. Sex is a Funny Word was written and illustrated based on hundreds of conversations with children, parents, families, and professionals. We've included more resources and tips on talking with kids about sex in a free reader's guide, which is available at their website. Our work is always made richer through feedback, and we welcome your comments and questions. Thanks for reading Corey Silverberg.

EJ: 57:02

So that sounds like an awesome book. I mean, for me as a parent with a toddler who's growing up. So actually like their, their previous one, uh, the, the one that's just on reproductive, what makes a baby, what makes a baby, uh, that is actually on my to buy list. My kid, I was too young, uh, for anything that is a proper paper book. Um, we are a board book only house right now. Um, so way too young. Uh, but I, I, that one I know also has really good reviews. And I think like, really, there is something key that was constantly being mentioned there. Maybe not right, not mentioned outright, but I think really key it is. This is supposed to be a journey that parents are supposed to help guide and be active in. Correct. They're not some sort of, they're not trying to make some sort of rules from on high of this is how it's got to be and then they just let the kids go in this whatever sort of walled garden they imagine the world or libraries to be. Okay. This is Something that you have to do with your child. And I think that can be really hard when you are in a sexually repressed culture. Yep. And, and honestly, I suspect that's the real root of the issue there. It's not just a sexually

Stacy: 58:29

repressive culture, but it's the

EJ: 58:31

aspects of the culture that want to make it even, even more repressive. Right. I do admit It's the same shit that

Stacy: 58:37

teaches, you know, abstinence only and that kind of bullshit.

EJ: 58:40

Yeah, I admit growing up in a family with nurses, public school teachers, social workers, that one particular aspect of arming children with knowledge and lack of shame regarding things like sexual assault, that is a huge safety issue to me. That I, to this day, I will never understand why some parents want to shy away from that because it is a scary common thing in American culture right now for many children to be sexually molested. And part of what these predators are hoping for is shame to be on their side. Yep. 100%.

Amy: 59:22

I did want to point out in the reviews, um, School Library Connection reviews, did say this was geared for grades six through eight. I'm wondering if they meant ages six to eight because everyone else says non fiction seven to twelve.

Stacy: 59:38

That language seems very...

Amy: 59:39

Ages seven to ten, um, grades two through six. I'm like, eh,

EJ: 59:46

This is as judgy mom as I'm going to get. Your mileage will vary, but that's okay if you know and are involved in your child's life. Exactly. I really try to avoid being the judgy mom because, you know, karma and all that jams. That's true. But I really hope that if someone saw me being a repressive parent, they would stop me from being an idiot. Yes.

Amy: 1:00:12

Okay, so back to, um, the inside of the titles mentioned. Most are intended for a teen audience. Those who are in grades 7 through 12, namely middle and high school. They are still considered youth, but they are on the cusp of entering adulthood, and they need to be prepared for what they will see and experience, because it won't always reflect their background or childhood.

EJ: 1:00:37

Absolutely!

Amy: 1:00:39

Now, there was one title in there they mentioned that was... E labeled, um, I'm categorizing that as easy reader, um, all of the professional reviewers and this book was, um, hang on, let me go back, go to where it is. This book is called Bodies Are Cool by Tyler Fetter and all of the professional reviewers agreed that this was a book for younger readers. Kirkus rated it for Ages 3 to 10, school library journal, preschool through grade 3, book list, preschool to grade 2, publishers weekly, 3 to 5 years old. And basically, this is a To quote what Kirkus says, It's a bustling celebration of body positivity that lovingly features bodies, skin, and hair of all kinds. Big bodies, small bodies, dancing, playing, happy bodies. Look at all these different bodies! Bodies Are Cool begins this engaging picture book extolling the variety and splendor of human bodies in gentle sing song text. And personally, I wish there had been a book like this to teach me and others that there is no standard body or appearance. And perhaps I wouldn't

EJ: 1:01:55

have been made for being

Amy: 1:01:57

a bigger girl than most of my classmates.

Stacy: 1:02:00

Well, or, you know, that nice case of body dysmorphia that I'm still fighting in my

EJ: 1:02:05

fucking forties. That'll get you good. I don't care who you are.

Amy: 1:02:10

Yes, but there were a lot of great reviews on that one. I mean, Kirkus was very happy with it. School Library Journal, very happy with it. Booklist, also Publishers Weekly, all of them. gave it high praise, and considering that area of the library is typically very, very scrutinized, that is, that's, That is a, a commendment to this particular book, and it can be read very easily, and even on the cover you get different examples of people. You have this one girl who has a prosthetic leg and also no shaved legs, and of course fat women in, in bikinis, and fat men, and skinny men, and little babies, and looks like a trans man there too. I mean, honestly, it just helps. Kids understand that the world is not a

EJ: 1:03:07

fishbowl.

Stacy: 1:03:08

Right, and it's not only, it's not, that's what I'm looking for, there's, we don't just have two types. Yes, homogenous. A skinny woman and a skinny man and anybody who, who doesn't. dwell within those specifications are bad or wrong. Instead, it's showing that we are a spectrum of shapes, colors, and sizes, and that's

EJ: 1:03:34

okay, that's good. Yes.

Amy: 1:03:39

Um, all right. So only one title on, on the list was marketed for an adult audience by the vendor that I consulted. However, professional, uh, this, this is actually We Can't Breathe by Jabari Asim on Black Lives, White Lies, and the Art of Survival. Um, professional reviewers agreed it was also a suitable text for high school students or mature teens. Um, it was also, it, this is, this is what I got from the New Braunfels Public Library Catalog. It's part of the Black Lives Matter YA reading list. And it was also a finalist for the Penn Diamonstein Spielvogel Award for the Art of the Essay. I have never heard of that award.

EJ: 1:04:26

I know Penn. Sounds fancy.

Amy: 1:04:28

I've never heard of that second portion of it. But anyways, that really says something there.

EJ: 1:04:34

Um, anyways. And of course that makes sense. American history in regards to racial justice and racial issues is full of violence. I do admit it is a personal thing of mine. I feel less comfortable about exposing my kid to violent media than sexual media. Yep. That's me. Um, I could go into detail why. Um, but in short, I get it.

Amy: 1:05:07

I do want to read a little bit of some of the reviews. Um, let's see. So, Library Journal, their verdict was it's a highly accessible book that would serve high school and college classrooms well in continuing the conversation about civil rights and social justice. And then School Library Journal said, It's sure to spur the conversation on race and identity. This is a strong addition to any collection for mature teens, especially as a supplement to history texts. That have left out the stories and voices of people of color and honestly, that's, that's amazing praise

EJ: 1:05:47

there. Yeah, that is amazing. Once again, we will put in a list of all the books that the Texas scorecard recommended for us. Um, and

Amy: 1:06:04

as well as reviews of at least

EJ: 1:06:07

five of them, and we will include the professional reviews. From highly reputable library sources, which no doubt the New Brunfels librarians were reading when they were in the middle of their book acquisition. I have to say, like, uh, you know, in kind of a, you know, towards wrapping up this episode, I'm kind of walking away with a conclusion of, so you're telling me the New Brunfels librarians do their research and homework and try to get, uh, their patrons high quality texts that are age appropriate. Yes. At least that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm hearing. And I do think that's actually a really important point, and I suppose it's very useful, really, for our audience to appreciate, while I understand we're preaching to the choir, in many ways. Here, this is not an unsafe audience to mention this to, so I don't, to me, this is not a useful thing to be like, we're going to change your hearts and minds. This is far more of a, hey, heads up, there is this whacked up part. Of our country that use things in this way and a lot of this I cannot emphasize enough. A lot of this is based off of fear and this idea always based off of fear. Yes. Always. Yep. And I, and I, I feel it's important to mention that whenever they are talking about it's going to corrupt our kids, it's going to be do awful stuff to our youth. They don't get specific. Why is reading about black kids being kits? A threat. Right. Why is learning about what it means to be a transgender child a threat? They don't go into detail. It just is. And by contrast, we have, uh, we have cited sources. We have data to be over here and say, like, it's okay. These are actually well researched, well considered books. Um, and always the, the best way to. Avoid fear is, is knowledge, in my opinion, when it comes to humans, because if there's something that humans don't fear the most, it's what we don't understand. And the best way to fight what you don't understand is through education. So the knowledge is the

Stacy: 1:08:35

torch in the darkness of ignorance. I can't remember, but I'm, I'm doing a hatchet job, but I know that's a

EJ: 1:08:42

quote from somebody. You got the spirit of it.

Amy: 1:08:45

Exactly. It comes across just fine,

EJ: 1:08:47

Stacey. Absolutely. Thank you.

Amy: 1:08:49

I was terrified. I'm, I'm still scared of spiders, but it's really not being afraid, afraid. It's just like, don't get on me. My

Stacy: 1:08:56

God, you're so creepy. Right, right. I don't like the way you move, but

EJ: 1:09:00

realistically, what's... A house fighter gonna do to me, you know? Right. So I kind of hope this discussion helped our listeners feel a little bit more, uh, armed and prepared because this is not going to end anytime soon. Yeah, the Texas. Law on, uh, making, public school library vendors. Goodness, it's such a, it's such a, it sounds like it's niche, but it's not. But I admit I'm enough of a nerd. I read the damn law. Um, and it's scary how quick of a read it is. I am also going to link it in our show notes so y'all can see it straight from the Texas state government's website. Um, it will find it as short too. And it's very broad. And yeah, which again, it's by design, um, well, in any, in any sense, also by design, if it goes forward, how many activists in America tend to do is if one law takes off in one state, especially in Big state like Texas and it's successful, copycats will follow. So for my fellow Americans out there, this is about a political, so I'm probably, I hope to ever get on this podcast. Um, I encourage you to prepare yourselves and just be aware. Yeah. And not, this is not to instill fear, but I hope that there is, there are things that you can know and, and understand what we're up against.

Stacy: 1:10:46

More a way to point out we got a problem here and less. Less fear mongering, because like you said, the best way to combat fear is through education, and I'm going to educate these motherfuckers upside their head with a dictionary, if that's

EJ: 1:10:59

what I have to do.

Amy: 1:11:01

It's about making our public aware,

EJ: 1:11:04

and that's all it is. Exactly, that's absolutely it. So, yeah, stay well read everyone. We'll talk to you later. Yes, and don't be dumb. And keep reading! Yes,

Stacy: 1:11:18

and if you need some smut recommendations, let us know.

EJ: 1:11:21

We got a couple titles we can give you. Oh, yeah. Yes, please do. We're not done talking about smut. Don't you all worry. Hell no!